The move to graduate early

supergrover · Guru

The move to graduate early

Juni · Guru

I need to read the article but my first instinct is No way! However, I did start college at 17 - not because I was brilliant but because I started school at 4. So, I guess since these days you see kids that are 6 starting kindergarten maybe it isn't that big of a deal to finish a bit early? I really don't know. I'll come back after I've actually read the article. ;)

mctex · Guru

Not only do I not want my kid in college sooner, but I'm actually a big proponent of the concept of the increasingly popular "gap year". As someone who (for the same reasons as Juni) was in residence at 17... I lasted exactly one year. Not due to intellectual maturity, but emotional readiness. (For some reason, I couldn't let class stand in the way of watching Hunter reruns. Seriously. To this day, it's still a mystery as to precisely why that was.) So I took my gap year... and then came back and knocked it out with a vengeance. I think it's an increasingly common story.

I think any public school teacher will say that whether or not they should be, they already are in the business of providing emotional development for kids.

I would imagine there are some situations, however, where this might be a really good thing. An inner city kid who is tempted daily to stray from the good student path to one of crime might be better off floundering in college than hanging out in the hood. But that's a rather unique case. In these cases, I wonder if maybe they could redefine the concept of a "junior college" and put together some sort of program where the focus is far more social development than academic?

I think we're doing Johnny Suburbs a huge disservice by sending him off to college early, though.

muffy · Guru

i think what bothers me esp about the utah thing is this politician appears to not give a crap about education - he is wanting to save money.

i as well think that there is a age/maturity level required to leave home (in most cases...) and go to college.

like texx, i love the gap year idea - wish i did it myself, because i forever fucked up my gpa my very first semester at college - too much partying - cause i was "the good girl" in high school and i really let loose once i was on my own. (my mom told everyone i was majoring in "cute, fun and popular" lmao!)

i love that school in europe is 13 years - kids wont normally graduate hs till they are 19.

AND they are almost forced into a gap year, because they need their "final" grades and to take some serious exams before getting into a university - most kids, like bert as well did, take a year "study program" - go he graduated, then took a year long study program to study for these tough university admittance exams.

when we hire new university graduates at my prev employer, the average age is 24-25 years old. these mid-20 somethings just finished their studies and are just starting their first job. (and university over here is usually takes 5 years, as students often take a year break during the studies to do some lengthy internships.)

supergrover · Guru

What we are also seeing is a huge spike in students taking college credit courses in high school. That sounds ideal, but you now have an 18 year old first year with Junior in college class standing.

They will be ready for their first post-college job in only 18-24 months?

Trust me, in many many circumstances I'm going to scream a giant YIKES to that one.

LDSMOM · Senior Member

I think that very few are ready at 17 or even 18 to be serious at college. I started college at 17 and did very well as did my sister who did the same thing, but we're some of the few who were ready at that age. From what I saw, many Freshmen aren't able to do it, even at 18 or 19 years old. However, for those few who can cut it, I think the option to do so is wonderful. I don't think that living on campus is a good idea until at least 17, though. Until then online classes or a college close to home is what I would recommend. Then again, I'm sure there are a few who could handle living away from home before 17 and do just fine so I'm not sure denying that would be a good idea, either.

supergrover · Guru

LDSMOM wrote:

I think that very few are ready at 17 or even 18 to be serious at college. I started college at 17 and did very well as did my sister who did the same thing, but we're some of the few who were ready at that age. From what I saw, many Freshmen aren't able to do it, even at 18 or 19 years old. However, for those few who can cut it, I think the option to do so is wonderful. I don't think that living on campus is a good idea until at least 17, though. Until then online classes or a college close to home is what I would recommend. Then again, I'm sure there are a few who could handle living away from home before 17 and do just fine so I'm not sure denying that would be a good idea, either.

I would go even further and say I don't think people should live in residence halls until they are 18. I don't walk around with a birthday list on a Friday night, yet my response for a 16-17 year old drinking is different than an 18 year old. At 17, our police would notify parents, at 18 they would be given a citation as any other adult would be. It just gets really messy.

3s_a_crowd · Guru

hmm I dont know. I graduated at 16 but I finished all required classes and went to a christian college where drinking wasnt allowed anyway.

Alicia · Senior Member

I like how it says "test out" since a test can't tell if you are prepared for college. I would be happy if my DS wanted an off year before starting college. With all the classes required now to graduate highschool I don't see how kids can blow 12 grade.

Lizzy · Guru

I have a somewhat different view than the pp. I think that we "coddle" kids too much these days and extend childhood, especially adolescenthood. if you look at previous generations,the ages when they acomplished things is much younger (ala benjamin franklin, who ended schooling at 10, which i don't advocate ;) but seriously, college just seems like one big party fest - which if that is the case, no, i would not want my child to do that, but yeah, graduate early and see the world, ie. peace corps, americorps, etc. that is ok with me. even apprentiships...whatever happened to those anyway?

i really don't know the "solution" but it does seem previous generations got married earlier and started familys - nowdays, we don't encourage that, but it does seem to leave many "kids" in flux, kwim?

LDSMOM · Senior Member

supergrover wrote:

LDSMOM wrote:

I think that very few are ready at 17 or even 18 to be serious at college. I started college at 17 and did very well as did my sister who did the same thing, but we're some of the few who were ready at that age. From what I saw, many Freshmen aren't able to do it, even at 18 or 19 years old. However, for those few who can cut it, I think the option to do so is wonderful. I don't think that living on campus is a good idea until at least 17, though. Until then online classes or a college close to home is what I would recommend. Then again, I'm sure there are a few who could handle living away from home before 17 and do just fine so I'm not sure denying that would be a good idea, either.

I would go even further and say I don't think people should live in residence halls until they are 18. I don't walk around with a birthday list on a Friday night, yet my response for a 16-17 year old drinking is different than an 18 year old. At 17, our police would notify parents, at 18 they would be given a citation as any other adult would be. It just gets really messy.

I suppose it would depend on how young a 17yo is. I turned 18 within 3 weeks of starting college. Then again, I know some 17yo's that would never drink so I don't think it would be an issue for them an would hold them back if they were denied residence. It's really an individual thing.

supergrover · Guru

LDSMOM wrote:

supergrover wrote:

LDSMOM wrote:

I think that very few are ready at 17 or even 18 to be serious at college. I started college at 17 and did very well as did my sister who did the same thing, but we're some of the few who were ready at that age. From what I saw, many Freshmen aren't able to do it, even at 18 or 19 years old. However, for those few who can cut it, I think the option to do so is wonderful. I don't think that living on campus is a good idea until at least 17, though. Until then online classes or a college close to home is what I would recommend. Then again, I'm sure there are a few who could handle living away from home before 17 and do just fine so I'm not sure denying that would be a good idea, either.

I would go even further and say I don't think people should live in residence halls until they are 18. I don't walk around with a birthday list on a Friday night, yet my response for a 16-17 year old drinking is different than an 18 year old. At 17, our police would notify parents, at 18 they would be given a citation as any other adult would be. It just gets really messy.

I suppose it would depend on how young a 17yo is. I turned 18 within 3 weeks of starting college. Then again, I know some 17yo's that would never drink so I don't think it would be an issue for them an would hold them back if they were denied residence. It's really an individual thing.

While I don't disagree, I have had 16 year olds crash and burn.

I know I'm taking this in a whole other direction, but at a state university I could house a 16 year old down the hall form a 35 year old working on their 2nd degree. Sketch. We've had students as old as 50+ in residence. Add in alcohol and just plain sketch.

Yes, I'm off topic. I just haven't had good experience with under 18's in the halls. (Heck, the 18's struggle in that first year in many cases)

3s_a_crowd · Guru

In that scenario jen, I think the problem is more the 50 year old in residence halls. Id find that sketchy even with a 19 yo down the hall. IMO.

-- Edited by 3s_a_crowd on Thursday 18th of February 2010 11:08:16 PM

Erin · Guru

lol Tracey!

I didnt read the article. But, Im totally in favor of a gap year. Wish I had one. Wish I had taken one post college pre-law school for that matter.

But, I wonder how much of it is a financial decision. Its tough to get all the credits for a degree in 4 years these days, so I know one motivation is to get classes out of the way and save money. In fact, Im on the board of a charter school and I believe the law here is that public high schools and charter school have to provide dual registration - meaning, if a kid is ready for college level courses, the h.s. has to provide them, even if it means paying for their college courses. So, a kid could come out of high school with a years worth of credit or more. Thats saving some money.

supergrover · Guru

3s_a_crowd wrote:

In that scenario jen, I think the problem is more the 50 year old in residence halls. Id find that sketchy even with a 19 yo down the hall. IMO.

-- Edited by 3s_a_crowd on Thursday 18th of February 2010 11:08:16 PM

Sure. But it happens. And I can't deny housing (though I can offer non-traditional housing and make it far more appealing which at this point is what we do, so most of our older students tend to cluster together).

Just like having 16 yrs olds in residence happens- though I think a univerisity would have a much stronger leg to stand on to deny housing to someone who is not yet a legal adult.

I probably shouldn't have thrown in that example because it moves the thread in a whole other direction, which wasn't my intent, I just think parents of these really bright kids who are academically ready (which ps- I think in many cases are academically book ready, not critical thinking ready) don't always think about the social side of things.

I am not opposed to taking c. college classes, or commuting. I'm selfishly thinking of this wave of 16-17 year olds. That said, bulking up on c. college credit to graduate in less years isn't necessarily the best either. I understand a few exceptionally bright students. That is wonderful. That has always been the case. At what point do you mainstream it so our entering workforce begins getting closer to closer to 20...19? Yes, I'm all worse case scenario. It is one of my less charming traits.

When I read the article yesterday it just underscored for me that we are narrowly defining when a student is ready by testing out. I'm not articulating well, lol.

-- Edited by supergrover on Friday 19th of February 2010 07:06:12 AM

muffy · Guru

Lizzy wrote:

I have a somewhat different view than the pp. I think that we "coddle" kids too much these days and extend childhood, especially adolescenthood. if you look at previous generations,the ages when they acomplished things is much younger (ala benjamin franklin, who ended schooling at 10, which i don't advocate ;) but seriously, college just seems like one big party fest - which if that is the case, no, i would not want my child to do that, but yeah, graduate early and see the world, ie. peace corps, americorps, etc. that is ok with me. even apprentiships...whatever happened to those anyway?

i really don't know the "solution" but it does seem previous generations got married earlier and started familys - nowdays, we don't encourage that, but it does seem to leave many "kids" in flux, kwim?

back in ben franklin days kids were more responsible - they didn't have disco's and iphones and ps3's to make them lazy - they knew they had to go out and work to survive.

my grandpa was the same thing - he stopped school in 8th grade to be a courier on wall street (nyc). he worked hard, got job in mailroom, became apprentice..... then the war started and he joined the army because that was the responsible thing to do... he finally graduated high school in his 20's and went to college after ww2. and let me tell you - he was right disgusted with my 3 male cousins how lazy they were and how they screwed up their lives....his impression of our generation is a bunch of spoiled brats LOL.

but we can't change it - it is what it is. technology changed us. the banks throwing credit cards at 18 year olds with no credit taught them the don't need to work to get that new iphone... society, business, media all help it along - it made us lazy people in general... that is what has turned this generation into spoiled brats.

yeah - i am scared for my kids. i am scared i am not going to be able to keep them on the right track.

seriously. sometimes i wake up in the middle of the night and this turns in my head.

also, my brother did the peace corps thing - 4 years in africa. then graduate school. he spent too much time "discovering himself" and now as a 40 year old he told me he regrets not getting serious about his life a bit earlier. but he was extreme - he had his first job earning over 20k per year when he was nearly 35 years old! too much time with a backpack of his life belongings on his back lmao!

muffy · Guru

i always wondered - if i had taken a gap year and gone to college with a more serious attitude.... if i hadnt fucked up my gpa so bad... i wonder if i would have fulfilled my lifelong dream of being a doctor.

i still have so many regrets about that.... boo!!!!!!!

supergrover · Guru

supergrover wrote:

3s_a_crowd wrote:

In that scenario jen, I think the problem is more the 50 year old in residence halls. Id find that sketchy even with a 19 yo down the hall. IMO.

-- Edited by 3s_a_crowd on Thursday 18th of February 2010 11:08:16 PM

Sure. But it happens. And I can't deny housing (though I can offer non-traditional housing and make it far more appealing which at this point is what we do, so most of our older students tend to cluster together).
Just like having 16 yrs olds in residence happens- though I think a univerisity would have a much stronger leg to stand on to deny housing to someone who is not yet a legal adult.
I probably shouldn't have thrown in that example because it moves the thread in a whole other direction, which wasn't my intent, I just think parents of these really bright kids who are academically ready (which ps- I think in many cases are academically book ready, not critical thinking ready) don't always think about the social side of things.
I am not opposed to taking c. college classes, or commuting. I'm selfishly thinking of this wave of 16-17 year olds. That said, bulking up on c. college credit to graduate in less years isn't necessarily the best either. I understand a few exceptionally bright students. That is wonderful. That has always been the case. At what point do you mainstream it so our entering workforce begins getting closer to closer to 20...19? Yes, I'm all worse case scenario. It is one of my less charming traits.
When I read the article yesterday it just underscored for me that we are narrowly defining when a student is ready by testing out. I'm not articulating well, lol.

-- Edited by supergrover on Friday 19th of February 2010 07:06:12 AM

one last thought on my inarticulate jumble this morning. I think for a cash strapped legislature it is easy to think "what is one year". I think that becomes a slippery slope to say "what is two years". I'm not an expert, I just work on the floor level, but I will say there is a HUGE difference in a typical 19 year old college sophomore and 21 year old senior. The student might not always see it in themselves as they are going through it, but the work I do and the conversations I have with my seniors are FAR different than my co-workers in 1st/2nd year housing. (and yes, I am continuing to project forward on these early grads in college, and while my experience is from a housing lens, I would think a professors lens would be somewhat similar).

mctex · Guru

muffy wrote:

Lizzy wrote:

I have a somewhat different view than the pp. I think that we "coddle" kids too much these days and extend childhood, especially adolescenthood. if you look at previous generations,the ages when they acomplished things is much younger (ala benjamin franklin, who ended schooling at 10, which i don't advocate ;) but seriously, college just seems like one big party fest - which if that is the case, no, i would not want my child to do that, but yeah, graduate early and see the world, ie. peace corps, americorps, etc. that is ok with me. even apprentiships...whatever happened to those anyway?

i really don't know the "solution" but it does seem previous generations got married earlier and started familys - nowdays, we don't encourage that, but it does seem to leave many "kids" in flux, kwim?

back in ben franklin days kids were more responsible - they didn't have disco's and iphones and ps3's to make them lazy - they knew they had to go out and work to survive.

my grandpa was the same thing - he stopped school in 8th grade to be a courier on wall street (nyc). he worked hard, got job in mailroom, became apprentice..... then the war started and he joined the army because that was the responsible thing to do... he finally graduated high school in his 20's and went to college after ww2. and let me tell you - he was right disgusted with my 3 male cousins how lazy they were and how they screwed up their lives....his impression of our generation is a bunch of spoiled brats LOL.

but we can't change it - it is what it is. technology changed us. the banks throwing credit cards at 18 year olds with no credit taught them the don't need to work to get that new iphone... society, business, media all help it along - it made us lazy people in general... that is what has turned this generation into spoiled brats.

yeah - i am scared for my kids. i am scared i am not going to be able to keep them on the right track.

seriously. sometimes i wake up in the middle of the night and this turns in my head.

also, my brother did the peace corps thing - 4 years in africa. then graduate school. he spent too much time "discovering himself" and now as a 40 year old he told me he regrets not getting serious about his life a bit earlier. but he was extreme - he had his first job earning over 20k per year when he was nearly 35 years old! too much time with a backpack of his life belongings on his back lmao!

ITA with most of what you're saying, but on a random side tangent -- the old curmudgeonly "this generation is spoiled" arguments drive me absolutely bonkers. (There's plenty of it in my family, too.)

What's funny is if you ask these generations why they did what they did, IF they can give you an answer at all (many of them will tell you "I don't know, it's just what we did, what was expected"), they'll tell you it was so their children could have better lives.

And then they're pissed off because the lives of their children and children's children look so different from theirs, LOL. Thinking of Maslow's hierarchy, if they were successful at satisfying the physiological and safety needs of their time, it would follow (and IMO it does) that our challenges would be about things related to love/self-esteem/the self.

I don't think it's the technology has made us lazy. I think the technology has made life's challenges very different... and one of those new challenges that our ancestors didn't have is how to forge an authentically satisfying path when one now has almost too many options.

Which is precisely why I do not feel kids are "coddled" and that adolescence lasts too long... on the contrary, I think it NEEDS to last longer now, so that no huge decisions are made before an individual has an appropriate read on their sense of self.

Lizzy · Guru

mctex wrote:

muffy wrote:

Lizzy wrote:

I have a somewhat different view than the pp. I think that we "coddle" kids too much these days and extend childhood, especially adolescenthood. if you look at previous generations,the ages when they acomplished things is much younger (ala benjamin franklin, who ended schooling at 10, which i don't advocate ;) but seriously, college just seems like one big party fest - which if that is the case, no, i would not want my child to do that, but yeah, graduate early and see the world, ie. peace corps, americorps, etc. that is ok with me. even apprentiships...whatever happened to those anyway?

i really don't know the "solution" but it does seem previous generations got married earlier and started familys - nowdays, we don't encourage that, but it does seem to leave many "kids" in flux, kwim?

back in ben franklin days kids were more responsible - they didn't have disco's and iphones and ps3's to make them lazy - they knew they had to go out and work to survive.

my grandpa was the same thing - he stopped school in 8th grade to be a courier on wall street (nyc). he worked hard, got job in mailroom, became apprentice..... then the war started and he joined the army because that was the responsible thing to do... he finally graduated high school in his 20's and went to college after ww2. and let me tell you - he was right disgusted with my 3 male cousins how lazy they were and how they screwed up their lives....his impression of our generation is a bunch of spoiled brats LOL.

but we can't change it - it is what it is. technology changed us. the banks throwing credit cards at 18 year olds with no credit taught them the don't need to work to get that new iphone... society, business, media all help it along - it made us lazy people in general... that is what has turned this generation into spoiled brats.

yeah - i am scared for my kids. i am scared i am not going to be able to keep them on the right track.

seriously. sometimes i wake up in the middle of the night and this turns in my head.

also, my brother did the peace corps thing - 4 years in africa. then graduate school. he spent too much time "discovering himself" and now as a 40 year old he told me he regrets not getting serious about his life a bit earlier. but he was extreme - he had his first job earning over 20k per year when he was nearly 35 years old! too much time with a backpack of his life belongings on his back lmao!

ITA with most of what you're saying, but on a random side tangent -- the old curmudgeonly "this generation is spoiled" arguments drive me absolutely bonkers. (There's plenty of it in my family, too.)

What's funny is if you ask these generations why they did what they did, IF they can give you an answer at all (many of them will tell you "I don't know, it's just what we did, what was expected"), they'll tell you it was so their children could have better lives.

And then they're pissed off because the lives of their children and children's children look so different from theirs, LOL. Thinking of Maslow's hierarchy, if they were successful at satisfying the physiological and safety needs of their time, it would follow (and IMO it does) that our challenges would be about things related to love/self-esteem/the self.

I don't think it's the technology has made us lazy. I think the technology has made life's challenges very different... and one of those new challenges that our ancestors didn't have is how to forge an authentically satisfying path when one now has almost too many options.
Which is precisely why I do not feel kids are "coddled" and that adolescence lasts too long... on the contrary, I think it NEEDS to last longer now, so that no huge decisions are made before an individual has an appropriate read on their sense of self.

to take this off-topic completely ;)....have you read some of the studies which say that this generation is increasingly narisistic?