Any former grade-school slackers out there??

crystal · Guru

RE: Any former grade-school slackers out there??

supergrover · Guru

crystal wrote:

mctex wrote:

CoffeeQueen wrote:

Toni

Is she suffering socially at school and this is manifesting into her school work? I know you said she is intelligent. Does she get made fun of because of it? Is she depressed with moving? Was she like this last year?

Here is a site that may be worth reading
http://www.newsforparents.org/expert_motivate_kids_homework.html

May not be what others believe, but there are a few truths in there that I believe in.

You can not make your child learn. You cannot make him hold a certain attitude. You cannot make him move his pencil.
While you can not insist, you can assist. Concentrate on assisting by sending positive invitations. Invite and encourage you child using the ideas that follow.
Sounds really easy, eh,lol. I just often find there are always other reasons why kids are not doing the work.

That is a great link, Melissa. (Bookmarking it now for future use, LOL)

I really like this part:

Replace monetary and external rewards with encouraging verbal responses. End the practice of paying for grades and going on a special trip for ice cream. This style of bribery has only short term gains and does little to encourage children to develop a lifetime love of learning.

I feel like the best case scenario that comes from these external rewards scenarios is that kids learn to view school as a necessary evil to be endured to get what they want... which is very different than helping foster a love of learning.

I've never known an academic superstar who didn't love learning just for learning's sake... and I've known a TON of super smart people who didn't like school because it held some sort of negative or extraneous emotional connotation.

All of that said... Toni, no advice for you, unfortunately. Just selfishly grateful for the what will be BTDT moms we have on board for when I hit those years.

my problem wasn't that i didn't love learning. i actually did love learning. i just thought that he homework was stupid. lmao. i would ask my teachers, why do i have to do homework if i can ace all the tests. and they never really gave me a good answer for it, so i stopped doing it.

LOL, I almost failed 8th grade science for this very reason. I felt the regurgitated responses at the end of chapters were dumb in most classes. I always had to do dozens of assignments at the end of every term to make it up before grades posted and do a ton of extra credit, but my stubborn little self was trying to prove the point that going two pages back to copy a sentence was useless. I would have hated to have my obnoxious self in the classroom.

(you've all read my posts long enough to know that perhaps I should have been a tad more attentive in spelling in grammar. Oops.)

-- Edited by supergrover on Saturday 20th of February 2010 06:40:25 AM

Toni · Guru

crystal wrote:

mctex wrote:

CoffeeQueen wrote:

Toni

Is she suffering socially at school and this is manifesting into her school work? I know you said she is intelligent. Does she get made fun of because of it? Is she depressed with moving? Was she like this last year?

Here is a site that may be worth reading
http://www.newsforparents.org/expert_motivate_kids_homework.html

May not be what others believe, but there are a few truths in there that I believe in.

You can not make your child learn. You cannot make him hold a certain attitude. You cannot make him move his pencil.
While you can not insist, you can assist. Concentrate on assisting by sending positive invitations. Invite and encourage you child using the ideas that follow.
Sounds really easy, eh,lol. I just often find there are always other reasons why kids are not doing the work.

That is a great link, Melissa. (Bookmarking it now for future use, LOL)

I really like this part:

Replace monetary and external rewards with encouraging verbal responses. End the practice of paying for grades and going on a special trip for ice cream. This style of bribery has only short term gains and does little to encourage children to develop a lifetime love of learning.

I feel like the best case scenario that comes from these external rewards scenarios is that kids learn to view school as a necessary evil to be endured to get what they want... which is very different than helping foster a love of learning.

I've never known an academic superstar who didn't love learning just for learning's sake... and I've known a TON of super smart people who didn't like school because it held some sort of negative or extraneous emotional connotation.

All of that said... Toni, no advice for you, unfortunately. Just selfishly grateful for the what will be BTDT moms we have on board for when I hit those years.

my problem wasn't that i didn't love learning. i actually did love learning. i just thought that he homework was stupid. lmao. i would ask my teachers, why do i have to do homework if i can ace all the tests. and they never really gave me a good answer for it, so i stopped doing it.

Ya, this is Danielle in a nutshell. I keep looking for a more complicated reason for why she slacks, because doing the work would be so easy for her, but it comes back to this.

After much discussion with teachers through the years, the conclusion is basically this: she has never really had to try before, but when the work gets harder or more time consuming, she bails. She is accustomed to not having to work hard, and doesn't really feel like doing it now. And she always aces her tests, so she feels like "why bother" when it comes to "busywork." Terrible attitude, and one I hope I didn't instill in her.

I don't think I could ever accuse her of not being a lover of learning; our biggest challenge with reading over the years has been to pull her away from the non-ficiton, encyclopedia-type books and get her more into longer fiction books. She craves information, and we are ALWAYS reaching out to that (case in point: memberships to two major museums, which we visit often, in addition to other things). When she watches television, it's usually Discovery or Animal Planet. We foster this tendancy whenever we see a chance, and I think our support has really helped that side of her grow.

I totally wish there was a quick solution, but I seriously don't think there is. She is doing wonderfully socially; her friends are awesome, she is really blossoming in that area. She and I are still close; we talk openly all the time, and have been having more discussions about serious things (drugs, sex, puberty), which seems to have made her even more open. The major sticking point is school. She is just SO unmotivated when it comes to the easy things like homework assignments.

My hope with external rewards is that each day, she is rewarded for trying hard. I completely understand that bribery is not a long-term solution; my hope is that she begins to associate doing well in school with a positive result. In addition to the positive result at home, praise from her teachers and family is also incredibly motivating, and I'm hoping that we can wean off a rewards system. The idea behind this is for her to not hate school, but to become proud of working hard, and for praise and good grades to be enough of a motivating factor to keep her going. Right now, we are resorting to punishment too often, and I just don't want her to have this bad taste in her mouth when it comes to school.

It's sometimes hard for me to remember that she is still only 10 years old, but I would rather be dealing with this now, and establishing solid habits and routines in elementary school, then be waging this war in high school when it really counts.

sappy · Guru

Toni wrote:

crystal wrote:

mctex wrote:

CoffeeQueen wrote:

Toni

Is she suffering socially at school and this is manifesting into her school work? I know you said she is intelligent. Does she get made fun of because of it? Is she depressed with moving? Was she like this last year?

Here is a site that may be worth reading
http://www.newsforparents.org/expert_motivate_kids_homework.html

May not be what others believe, but there are a few truths in there that I believe in.

You can not make your child learn. You cannot make him hold a certain attitude. You cannot make him move his pencil.
While you can not insist, you can assist. Concentrate on assisting by sending positive invitations. Invite and encourage you child using the ideas that follow.
Sounds really easy, eh,lol. I just often find there are always other reasons why kids are not doing the work.

That is a great link, Melissa. (Bookmarking it now for future use, LOL)

I really like this part:

Replace monetary and external rewards with encouraging verbal responses. End the practice of paying for grades and going on a special trip for ice cream. This style of bribery has only short term gains and does little to encourage children to develop a lifetime love of learning.

I feel like the best case scenario that comes from these external rewards scenarios is that kids learn to view school as a necessary evil to be endured to get what they want... which is very different than helping foster a love of learning.

I've never known an academic superstar who didn't love learning just for learning's sake... and I've known a TON of super smart people who didn't like school because it held some sort of negative or extraneous emotional connotation.

All of that said... Toni, no advice for you, unfortunately. Just selfishly grateful for the what will be BTDT moms we have on board for when I hit those years.

my problem wasn't that i didn't love learning. i actually did love learning. i just thought that he homework was stupid. lmao. i would ask my teachers, why do i have to do homework if i can ace all the tests. and they never really gave me a good answer for it, so i stopped doing it.

Ya, this is Danielle in a nutshell. I keep looking for a more complicated reason for why she slacks, because doing the work would be so easy for her, but it comes back to this.

After much discussion with teachers through the years, the conclusion is basically this: she has never really had to try before, but when the work gets harder or more time consuming, she bails. She is accustomed to not having to work hard, and doesn't really feel like doing it now. And she always aces her tests, so she feels like "why bother" when it comes to "busywork." Terrible attitude, and one I hope I didn't instill in her.

I don't think I could ever accuse her of not being a lover of learning; our biggest challenge with reading over the years has been to pull her away from the non-ficiton, encyclopedia-type books and get her more into longer fiction books. She craves information, and we are ALWAYS reaching out to that (case in point: memberships to two major museums, which we visit often, in addition to other things). When she watches television, it's usually Discovery or Animal Planet. We foster this tendancy whenever we see a chance, and I think our support has really helped that side of her grow.

I totally wish there was a quick solution, but I seriously don't think there is. She is doing wonderfully socially; her friends are awesome, she is really blossoming in that area. She and I are still close; we talk openly all the time, and have been having more discussions about serious things (drugs, sex, puberty), which seems to have made her even more open. The major sticking point is school. She is just SO unmotivated when it comes to the easy things like homework assignments.

My hope with external rewards is that each day, she is rewarded for trying hard. I completely understand that bribery is not a long-term solution; my hope is that she begins to associate doing well in school with a positive result. In addition to the positive result at home, praise from her teachers and family is also incredibly motivating, and I'm hoping that we can wean off a rewards system. The idea behind this is for her to not hate school, but to become proud of working hard, and for praise and good grades to be enough of a motivating factor to keep her going. Right now, we are resorting to punishment too often, and I just don't want her to have this bad taste in her mouth when it comes to school.

It's sometimes hard for me to remember that she is still only 10 years old, but I would rather be dealing with this now, and establishing solid habits and routines in elementary school, then be waging this war in high school when it really counts.

i know i've said this before but everything in the red above is jake. to.a.T.

the blue is exactly how i feel as well. i think my biggest downfall in this area (and as a parent in general) is not picking something, anything, and STICKING WITH IT. i think i haven't been consistant enough. too much change, too many false starts ... he knows somewhere deep down that if he just waits long enough it will end. that is my biggest regret/difficulty.

mctex · Guru

Toni wrote:

crystal wrote:

my problem wasn't that i didn't love learning. i actually did love learning. i just thought that he homework was stupid. lmao. i would ask my teachers, why do i have to do homework if i can ace all the tests. and they never really gave me a good answer for it, so i stopped doing it.

Ya, this is Danielle in a nutshell. I keep looking for a more complicated reason for why she slacks, because doing the work would be so easy for her, but it comes back to this.

After much discussion with teachers through the years, the conclusion is basically this: she has never really had to try before, but when the work gets harder or more time consuming, she bails. She is accustomed to not having to work hard, and doesn't really feel like doing it now. And she always aces her tests, so she feels like "why bother" when it comes to "busywork." Terrible attitude, and one I hope I didn't instill in her.

I don't think I could ever accuse her of not being a lover of learning; our biggest challenge with reading over the years has been to pull her away from the non-ficiton, encyclopedia-type books and get her more into longer fiction books. She craves information, and we are ALWAYS reaching out to that (case in point: memberships to two major museums, which we visit often, in addition to other things). When she watches television, it's usually Discovery or Animal Planet. We foster this tendancy whenever we see a chance, and I think our support has really helped that side of her grow.

I totally wish there was a quick solution, but I seriously don't think there is. She is doing wonderfully socially; her friends are awesome, she is really blossoming in that area. She and I are still close; we talk openly all the time, and have been having more discussions about serious things (drugs, sex, puberty), which seems to have made her even more open. The major sticking point is school. She is just SO unmotivated when it comes to the easy things like homework assignments.

My hope with external rewards is that each day, she is rewarded for trying hard. I completely understand that bribery is not a long-term solution; my hope is that she begins to associate doing well in school with a positive result. In addition to the positive result at home, praise from her teachers and family is also incredibly motivating, and I'm hoping that we can wean off a rewards system. The idea behind this is for her to not hate school, but to become proud of working hard, and for praise and good grades to be enough of a motivating factor to keep her going. Right now, we are resorting to punishment too often, and I just don't want her to have this bad taste in her mouth when it comes to school.

It's sometimes hard for me to remember that she is still only 10 years old, but I would rather be dealing with this now, and establishing solid habits and routines in elementary school, then be waging this war in high school when it really counts.

What's funny is now we're talking about something I personally do identify with, but I'm not sure I would've categorized myself as a slacker, because I would usually find the path of least resistance that provided for the best possible outcome. biggrin

I reread what you said earlier about Danielle and the math homework, and I'm now thinking back to an article that MommaSteph posted a long time ago about the danger of labeling kids "gifted" or "smart" -- it was something that resonated with me loudly as I reflected back on my own youth. The premise was that kids equate being smart with exuding little effort... and thus never challenge themselves because they don't want to jeopardize their self perception of being smart. Throw in a lack of tolerance for busywork, and you've got a kid who never does homework, LOL. (Oh, hey... the article is actually linked to from the MS homepage, LOL. It's here.)

DYT there might be some of that going on? If so, it definitely sounds like you're on the right track in rewarding and complimenting "good effort". I think I would try to approach it not just from the homework angle, but from the whole life angle -- good effort doing chores, playing sports, doing homework, etc., and make it family-wide (so she saw me and DH praise each other for good effort, etc.).

But honestly, regarding what I've highlighted in red... does that actually work? I guess I'm just having a hard time buying the assumption that you can cement these good habits in at this time. (I know for me, after some rough patches in jr. high, I was solid up until junior year of HS, when I had my first BF... and then it was all out the window again). I think if it were me, I'd think the risk of tarnishing our relationship and her enthusiasm for school would outweigh the likelihood that I could get her into some sort of homework "routine" that she'd keep indefinitely, particularly through the even more defiant teenage years.

It sounds like the material isn't critical for her actual subject comprehension... what is the worst that happens if she doesn't put forth her best effort? I mean the intellectual horsepower is obviously there, the passion for learning is there... is the difference in the homework the difference between an A and a C or an A and an F? Because if it's the former, I honestly think I'd just be tempted to let the chips fall where they may in the short term, while doing everything I could to emphasize that it's effort and not ability that matters. Because her intolerance of bullshit is actually a quality that can serve her very well... and while if taken too far too soon it can obviously be opportunity limiting, in the long term that exact quality is the difference-maker between someone who is average and someone who is exceptional. If you can figure out how to preserve that quality without letting her screw things up for herself too badly, you'll have raised one heck of an adult.

Toni · Guru

mctex wrote:

Toni wrote:

crystal wrote:

my problem wasn't that i didn't love learning. i actually did love learning. i just thought that he homework was stupid. lmao. i would ask my teachers, why do i have to do homework if i can ace all the tests. and they never really gave me a good answer for it, so i stopped doing it.

Ya, this is Danielle in a nutshell. I keep looking for a more complicated reason for why she slacks, because doing the work would be so easy for her, but it comes back to this.

After much discussion with teachers through the years, the conclusion is basically this: she has never really had to try before, but when the work gets harder or more time consuming, she bails. She is accustomed to not having to work hard, and doesn't really feel like doing it now. And she always aces her tests, so she feels like "why bother" when it comes to "busywork." Terrible attitude, and one I hope I didn't instill in her.

I don't think I could ever accuse her of not being a lover of learning; our biggest challenge with reading over the years has been to pull her away from the non-ficiton, encyclopedia-type books and get her more into longer fiction books. She craves information, and we are ALWAYS reaching out to that (case in point: memberships to two major museums, which we visit often, in addition to other things). When she watches television, it's usually Discovery or Animal Planet. We foster this tendancy whenever we see a chance, and I think our support has really helped that side of her grow.

I totally wish there was a quick solution, but I seriously don't think there is. She is doing wonderfully socially; her friends are awesome, she is really blossoming in that area. She and I are still close; we talk openly all the time, and have been having more discussions about serious things (drugs, sex, puberty), which seems to have made her even more open. The major sticking point is school. She is just SO unmotivated when it comes to the easy things like homework assignments.

My hope with external rewards is that each day, she is rewarded for trying hard. I completely understand that bribery is not a long-term solution; my hope is that she begins to associate doing well in school with a positive result. In addition to the positive result at home, praise from her teachers and family is also incredibly motivating, and I'm hoping that we can wean off a rewards system. The idea behind this is for her to not hate school, but to become proud of working hard, and for praise and good grades to be enough of a motivating factor to keep her going. Right now, we are resorting to punishment too often, and I just don't want her to have this bad taste in her mouth when it comes to school.

It's sometimes hard for me to remember that she is still only 10 years old, but I would rather be dealing with this now, and establishing solid habits and routines in elementary school, then be waging this war in high school when it really counts.

What's funny is now we're talking about something I personally do identify with, but I'm not sure I would've categorized myself as a slacker, because I would usually find the path of least resistance that provided for the best possible outcome.

I reread what you said earlier about Danielle and the math homework, and I'm now thinking back to an article that MommaSteph posted a long time ago about the danger of labeling kids "gifted" or "smart" -- it was something that resonated with me loudly as I reflected back on my own youth. The premise was that kids equate being smart with exuding little effort... and thus never challenge themselves because they don't want to jeopardize their self perception of being smart. Throw in a lack of tolerance for busywork, and you've got a kid who never does homework, LOL. (Oh, hey... the article is actually linked to from the MS homepage, LOL. It's here.)

DYT there might be some of that going on? If so, it definitely sounds like you're on the right track in rewarding and complimenting "good effort". I think I would try to approach it not just from the homework angle, but from the whole life angle -- good effort doing chores, playing sports, doing homework, etc., and make it family-wide (so she saw me and DH praise each other for good effort, etc.).

But honestly, regarding what I've highlighted in red... does that actually work? I guess I'm just having a hard time buying the assumption that you can cement these good habits in at this time. (I know for me, after some rough patches in jr. high, I was solid up until junior year of HS, when I had my first BF... and then it was all out the window again). I think if it were me, I'd think the risk of tarnishing our relationship and her enthusiasm for school would outweigh the likelihood that I could get her into some sort of homework "routine" that she'd keep indefinitely, particularly through the even more defiant teenage years.

It sounds like the material isn't critical for her actual subject comprehension... what is the worst that happens if she doesn't put forth her best effort? I mean the intellectual horsepower is obviously there, the passion for learning is there... is the difference in the homework the difference between an A and a C or an A and an F? Because if it's the former, I honestly think I'd just be tempted to let the chips fall where they may in the short term, while doing everything I could to emphasize that it's effort and not ability that matters. Because her intolerance of bullshit is actually a quality that can serve her very well... and while if taken too far too soon it can obviously be opportunity limiting, in the long term that exact quality is the difference-maker between someone who is average and someone who is exceptional. If you can figure out how to preserve that quality without letting her screw things up for herself too badly, you'll have raised one heck of an adult.

It's funny, because I remember reading that blog/article, and thinking "that is SO right." I don't know if you guys know this, but I have an older sister who has severed her relationship with my family. She was the oldest of 6, and is undeniably brilliant (she hangs her hat on being in Menza, and having some outlandishly high IQ). She's smart, she knows she's smart, and everyone always knew she was smart. But at the same time, she became so arrogant about this fact that she completely ruined her life. She barely graduated from high school, and when she did, she promptly moved out and got a job. She felt like she was above school, and was too enlightened for society. She currently lives in the same dilapidated house in Cicero, and has filed for bankruptcy twice in her life.

(After missing my sister's baby shower on Sat, she posted the following FB update: Judy Thomas"The ties that bind." What are these really? I feel that mine are based on honor I have heard others refer to blood, family, gang, school, nation, church, ... the list seems endless. What are other's thoughts on this?" )

Moral of the story: all the brains in the world won't get you anywhere if you carry around the "I'm smart and don't have to work" attitude.

On the flip side of the coin is my brother-in-law, who is dyslexic, but worked super hard and has a degree in chemical engineering, and is currently a practicing MD. I think I have made this distinction to her so many times, she must be getting sick of it, lol.

I am absolutely terrified that Dani will somehow find her way into the former category, and has been a concern of mine for years (which is why I take all of this so seriously). So there is no shortage of emphasis being placed on effort, but she still isn't getting the message. The thing is she knows she's smart. She knows how well she does in all varieties of testing, and is smart enough to know that she is smart, kwim? I do not want that to be the thing she hangs her hat on, hence getting her involved in things like swimming and 4H, because I don't want that to be her calling card: Hi, my name is Danielle, and I'm smarter than you."

What we are finding is that talking, discussing, meeting with teachers, etc., isn't really cutting it with getting the message through. What we need is something more concrete, something that gets to her visceral core and makes an impact.

And believe me, I have been SO tempted to just let her fall on her face with this. In this class, homework has a HUGE impact on grades (it's weighted nearly the same as tests; everything is entered as a percentage), so she would clearly fail if she kept up these shenanigans. However, I feel like I haven't done all I can do to help her, and until I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall, I want to keep trying. And quite honestly, a part of me is afraid she will fail, and won't care, and then I will really be out of options. My biggest fear is for her to follow the same road as my sister, and to lose her completely, which I think you summed up in your last statement. Having seen the crash and burn that can occur with kids like this, I am trying hard not to further alienate her and push her away, but to help her find a way to motivate herself. It's a crazy dance, and one I don't seem to be very good at.

I will say, talking this through on here is helping. It's like therapy, but much cheaper. Thinking through these responses is helping me to organize and see what the real issues are here., and I appreciate all of you taking the time to give feedback on it.

Toni · Guru

And upon further reflection as I was just cooking some eggs...

I think the issue is not a child's ability to recognize and cut through the bullshit, but rather the feeling of entitlement that comes with that. The problem is when they recognize something as bullshit, and decide they don't need to do it. How do we counter that? I think this is where these kids end up getting in trouble later; they feel like certain aspects of life are below them; they are too smart to have to sit through prerequ's in college (seriously, I think we all feel that way, but we do it anyway because it's a necessary part of getting a college degree). This very fact stopped my sister from going to/completing college. And we all know that there is a certain level of bullshit taking in the workforce; what happens when people feel like they are too good for something? It can either end really well, with them reaching beyond their current position, or really badly, living with a bunch of weirdos in a rundown house with no job.

And in regards to the article, it is SO difficult to find the balance with praise. On the one hand, you have over-praising, which lowers dopamine levels in the brain and inhibits the cycle of the prefrontal cortex that encourages hard work. However, I think most people have met adults who say "nothing I ever did was good enough for my parents." So the goal is to decide what is worth praise; good test scores, or exhibition of effort? Is it different for every child?

I need a flowchart.

apies · Guru

toni, when you're ready for this thread to die, let us know. :)

i teach the "general" level kids at school. most of these kids are "lazy" by nature and that is why they are there - not because they are not smart. and one of my goals with them is always to teach them life skills and not just english crap. "why can't we curse at school? they curse on tv!" because you need to know socially appropriate behavior. if you were working in target, would you curse around your customers? of course not. same thing here.

thoughts like you and tx described along the lines of "i can ace the test; why do i need to do this stupid homework?" come up often in my general classes. or in my college prep classes, for example, my students are working on research papers and we make them do all kind of steps before they write their paper - find sources, make source cards, make notecards, write an outline, write an intro, etc. kids ALWAYS want to complain that it's not realistic - that colleges won't have them doing it that way.

the only way i can counter it is to relate it to work. if i have good observations as a teacher and am getting praise for my success as a teacher, why bother with my weekly lesson plans? BECAUSE I HAVE TO. and sometimes that's just the way it is. sometimes a boss/company will have smaller deadlines before the big deadline. why do i have to do these little tasks and show them to you when i know i'm capable of doing the big project?

while that may not work with dani because she's young, it may be something to file away for the future.

mctex · Guru

Toni wrote:

mctex wrote:

What's funny is now we're talking about something I personally do identify with, but I'm not sure I would've categorized myself as a slacker, because I would usually find the path of least resistance that provided for the best possible outcome.

I reread what you said earlier about Danielle and the math homework, and I'm now thinking back to an article that MommaSteph posted a long time ago about the danger of labeling kids "gifted" or "smart" -- it was something that resonated with me loudly as I reflected back on my own youth. The premise was that kids equate being smart with exuding little effort... and thus never challenge themselves because they don't want to jeopardize their self perception of being smart. Throw in a lack of tolerance for busywork, and you've got a kid who never does homework, LOL. (Oh, hey... the article is actually linked to from the MS homepage, LOL. It's here.)

DYT there might be some of that going on? If so, it definitely sounds like you're on the right track in rewarding and complimenting "good effort". I think I would try to approach it not just from the homework angle, but from the whole life angle -- good effort doing chores, playing sports, doing homework, etc., and make it family-wide (so she saw me and DH praise each other for good effort, etc.).

But honestly, regarding what I've highlighted in red... does that actually work? I guess I'm just having a hard time buying the assumption that you can cement these good habits in at this time. (I know for me, after some rough patches in jr. high, I was solid up until junior year of HS, when I had my first BF... and then it was all out the window again). I think if it were me, I'd think the risk of tarnishing our relationship and her enthusiasm for school would outweigh the likelihood that I could get her into some sort of homework "routine" that she'd keep indefinitely, particularly through the even more defiant teenage years.

It sounds like the material isn't critical for her actual subject comprehension... what is the worst that happens if she doesn't put forth her best effort? I mean the intellectual horsepower is obviously there, the passion for learning is there... is the difference in the homework the difference between an A and a C or an A and an F? Because if it's the former, I honestly think I'd just be tempted to let the chips fall where they may in the short term, while doing everything I could to emphasize that it's effort and not ability that matters. Because her intolerance of bullshit is actually a quality that can serve her very well... and while if taken too far too soon it can obviously be opportunity limiting, in the long term that exact quality is the difference-maker between someone who is average and someone who is exceptional. If you can figure out how to preserve that quality without letting her screw things up for herself too badly, you'll have raised one heck of an adult.

It's funny, because I remember reading that blog/article, and thinking "that is SO right." I don't know if you guys know this, but I have an older sister who has severed her relationship with my family. She was the oldest of 6, and is undeniably brilliant (she hangs her hat on being in Menza, and having some outlandishly high IQ). She's smart, she knows she's smart, and everyone always knew she was smart. But at the same time, she became so arrogant about this fact that she completely ruined her life. She barely graduated from high school, and when she did, she promptly moved out and got a job. She felt like she was above school, and was too enlightened for society. She currently lives in the same dilapidated house in Cicero, and has filed for bankruptcy twice in her life.

(After missing my sister's baby shower on Sat, she posted the following FB update: Judy Thomas"The ties that bind." What are these really? I feel that mine are based on honor I have heard others refer to blood, family, gang, school, nation, church, ... the list seems endless. What are other's thoughts on this?" )

Moral of the story: all the brains in the world won't get you anywhere if you carry around the "I'm smart and don't have to work" attitude.

On the flip side of the coin is my brother-in-law, who is dyslexic, but worked super hard and has a degree in chemical engineering, and is currently a practicing MD. I think I have made this distinction to her so many times, she must be getting sick of it, lol.

I am absolutely terrified that Dani will somehow find her way into the former category, and has been a concern of mine for years (which is why I take all of this so seriously). So there is no shortage of emphasis being placed on effort, but she still isn't getting the message. The thing is she knows she's smart. She knows how well she does in all varieties of testing, and is smart enough to know that she is smart, kwim? I do not want that to be the thing she hangs her hat on, hence getting her involved in things like swimming and 4H, because I don't want that to be her calling card: Hi, my name is Danielle, and I'm smarter than you."

What we are finding is that talking, discussing, meeting with teachers, etc., isn't really cutting it with getting the message through. What we need is something more concrete, something that gets to her visceral core and makes an impact.

And believe me, I have been SO tempted to just let her fall on her face with this. In this class, homework has a HUGE impact on grades (it's weighted nearly the same as tests; everything is entered as a percentage), so she would clearly fail if she kept up these shenanigans. However, I feel like I haven't done all I can do to help her, and until I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall, I want to keep trying. And quite honestly, a part of me is afraid she will fail, and won't care, and then I will really be out of options. My biggest fear is for her to follow the same road as my sister, and to lose her completely, which I think you summed up in your last statement. Having seen the crash and burn that can occur with kids like this, I am trying hard not to further alienate her and push her away, but to help her find a way to motivate herself. It's a crazy dance, and one I don't seem to be very good at.

I will say, talking this through on here is helping. It's like therapy, but much cheaper. Thinking through these responses is helping me to organize and see what the real issues are here., and I appreciate all of you taking the time to give feedback on it.

To the extent that this is helpful for you, I'm happy to be one of the folks on the other end of this conversation. Honestly, Toni, I would never in a million years presume to know what you should or shouldn't do. I have my thoughts, but the one thing that motherhood has taught me this far is to never judge a path I've never traveled. Right now, my only kid in school is in Pre-K and is a total show-off, so it's easy for me to say "I wouldn't stress." Talk to me in a few years if and when that changes, and I'd bet I'll have a very different philosophy... LOL!

I'm curious how your parents handled the situation with your sister. I know for me, my parents were pretty hands-off... I think they had no idea what to do, and thus didn't do much of anything. What ultimately kept me on something close to the straight and narrow (I dropped in class rank from the top of the top quarter to the bottom of the top half in one semester) was that where I went to HS, it was "cool" to be on the college prep track. Should I have been in a different environment, I'm not really sure what would've happened.

mctex · Guru

Toni wrote:

And upon further reflection as I was just cooking some eggs...

I think the issue is not a child's ability to recognize and cut through the bullshit, but rather the feeling of entitlement that comes with that. The problem is when they recognize something as bullshit, and decide they don't need to do it. How do we counter that? I think this is where these kids end up getting in trouble later; they feel like certain aspects of life are below them; they are too smart to have to sit through prerequ's in college (seriously, I think we all feel that way, but we do it anyway because it's a necessary part of getting a college degree). This very fact stopped my sister from going to/completing college. And we all know that there is a certain level of bullshit taking in the workforce; what happens when people feel like they are too good for something? It can either end really well, with them reaching beyond their current position, or really badly, living with a bunch of weirdos in a rundown house with no job.

And in regards to the article, it is SO difficult to find the balance with praise. On the one hand, you have over-praising, which lowers dopamine levels in the brain and inhibits the cycle of the prefrontal cortex that encourages hard work. However, I think most people have met adults who say "nothing I ever did was good enough for my parents." So the goal is to decide what is worth praise; good test scores, or exhibition of effort? Is it different for every child?

I need a flowchart.

I completely agree on the praise conflict... I have no idea if I'm doing it right. For me, I just try to make damn sure that praise comes when it's authentic, because I think kids can smell a lie a mile away -- and more than anything, I want them to believe that I'm someone they can trust.

Which probably equals too infrequent praise in this house, IDK. Of course, I'm so smitten with them that my definition of things that authentically merit praise might be so obnoxious that it's too much.

(If you find a flowchart that works, please share.)

You know, the only negative feedback that we got in Alexandra's parent teacher conference was that she has a quick and severe frustration when she can't easily do whatever she's trying to do. I, of course, blamed myself. (That is supposed to be funny, but probably isn't.)

After processing your description of Danielle, it is just finally occurring to me that perhaps some of Alexandra's self-perception is, you know, actually coming from herSELF as opposed to me. (Wow, narcissistic much?)

So maybe we're closer to this camp than I think.

mctex · Guru

apies wrote:

toni, when you're ready for this thread to die, let us know. :)

i teach the "general" level kids at school. most of these kids are "lazy" by nature and that is why they are there - not because they are not smart. and one of my goals with them is always to teach them life skills and not just english crap. "why can't we curse at school? they curse on tv!" because you need to know socially appropriate behavior. if you were working in target, would you curse around your customers? of course not. same thing here.

thoughts like you and tx described along the lines of "i can ace the test; why do i need to do this stupid homework?" come up often in my general classes. or in my college prep classes, for example, my students are working on research papers and we make them do all kind of steps before they write their paper - find sources, make source cards, make notecards, write an outline, write an intro, etc. kids ALWAYS want to complain that it's not realistic - that colleges won't have them doing it that way.

the only way i can counter it is to relate it to work. if i have good observations as a teacher and am getting praise for my success as a teacher, why bother with my weekly lesson plans? BECAUSE I HAVE TO. and sometimes that's just the way it is. sometimes a boss/company will have smaller deadlines before the big deadline. why do i have to do these little tasks and show them to you when i know i'm capable of doing the big project?

while that may not work with dani because she's young, it may be something to file away for the future.

I know this is probably good advice -- certainly from the perspective of our society and social expectations -- but I have to say that I'm not sure that my 37 yo self responds any differently than my 17 yo self would've. (Not sure what that says about me, LOL)

I recently had a conversation with my someone where I was being advised that "it's not good to make your kids the center of attention, because they can't be the center of attention for everyone forever and that's not preparing them for real life".

True, except I've never seen a case where making something suck now in order to prepare for future sucking has ever worked (in the emotional realm). If anything, it's made it even worse, because the future suck not only brings on its own emotion but all of the bottled emotion from the previous suck.

My fear is that it causes people to disconnect from themselves... like they're supposed to believe that busywork will somehow become less annoying if they do it a million times, so their mind is telling them one thing while their actual sense of it is something different. (I think that there is value to structure, but I'm not sure that this is it.)

I recently became familiar with a Mahatma Ghandi quote "Happiness is when what you say, what you think and what you do are in harmony." Anything that potentially breaks that harmony makes me nervous.

Just my soapbox for the day, LOL. It's snowing here, and thus y'all will suffer.