Where are you on sending your '05er to kindy this fall?

Alicia · Senior Member

RE: Where are you on sending your '05er to kindy this fall?

crystal · Guru

mctex wrote:

gogona wrote:

mctex wrote:

Alexandra is staying at the International Baccalaureate school we currently have her in. We're pretty excited about it... I really love the curriculum and approach, and her comprehension of Spanish is pretty amazing (it's an immersion program). I wanted to hold her back a year (I was young for my grade, and was hoping she wouldn't be), but her teachers feel pretty strongly about putting her into K next year.

The public school near us is supposed to be fantastic... but the school is HUGE, with 21 kindergarten classes (each with the normal 21-ish students) and over 1,000 students in the elementary school. Does that seem crazy big to anyone else? (My elementary school had 2 kindergartens, LOL)

I am a little confused because I thought that IBs were programs that schools had. For example, my sister graduated from Jakarta International School that had an international baccalaureate (IB) program which basically means that the school has college classes incorporated during 12th and 13th? (if I remember correctly) grades and after the completion of the program, kids can skip the first years of college/university and jump into 3rd year of college.

The IB has a primary, middle years and diploma program. Alexandra's school is currently just a primary school, but the plan is to add the other grades as the years progress.

Here's the site for the IB...
http://ibo.org/mission/

...and here's the info on the primary program.
http://ibo.org/pyp/

The IB was actually founded to create a worldwide standardized education for people who travel a lot, so they could be assured that their child would be able to easily move from one school to another. You might want to check it out... the Washington International School is probably the strongest IB program in the country (although SUPER expensive). :)

this sounds a lot like mason's school. he goes to the International School of Amsterdam. it is great because he is in a class with 16 kids from 10 different countries. i love that.

i will say though, i'm not sure i would want him to be in it long term because the people leave all.the.time. he has already had 4 of the 16 kids in his class leave to go to another country. luckily it wasn't one of the kids that he plays with the most or he would have been devastated. i just don't like the constant in and out. is it like that at A's school? do you find that to be an advantage because it is getting them used to change? just curious smile

-- Edited by crystal on Monday 18th of January 2010 12:53:22 PM

mctex · Guru

Alison wrote:

Tex, am I on crack or had you considered sending A to a Waldorf school at one point?

I've done some reading on Waldorf recently and it kind of frightens me, LOL. I was just wondering what your experience was with them.

Yes, we were looking pretty hard at the Waldorf school here in Austin.

The appeal for me was in their heavy play emphasis... like they really encourage imagination (talking about wizards and shit, which definitely freaked me out at first, LOL). But with this comes a strong exploration of the arts (all kids must learn how to knit, all kids must play an instrument), and that really appealed to me. The trade-off, of course, was that they postpone a lot of academic stuff... well, specifically reading, which they don't introduce until the second grade.

Personally, I'm willing to take hits on the academics (in the short term) to foster the love of learning, so that wasn't too problematic for me. (That, and Alexandra is already reading, so it's easy for me to say "put it off" when I know that's more than likely going to be one of her stronger areas overall, if that makes sense.) But they also have this "no media until junior high" policy that prohibits all TV, pop music, movies, computer, etc... and while in a quaint way, it sort of appealed to me, the reality is that it was not a good fit for our family overall. For example, when I went to visit the Austin campus for Grandparents/Special Friends Day, I overheard a conversation between third grade parents where one's son had asked for an iTouch (apparently, a kid on his baseball team had one), and the mother said that MAYBE if he kept on top of his chores for the rest of the semester that for his birthday she would select ONE game for him to play occasionally on her phone. Now switch to my house, where the day before Alexandra is so familiar with my phone that she had tried to download her own game (she already had like 20 she was bored with) and was asking for my password. (LOL!) So, yeah, I think we'd have a hard time fitting in there.

I will say that I was really impressed with the graduating seniors they had on a panel during that visit, and the unexpected diversity. Seniors are required to do a thesis on a topic of their choosing, and while you did have the sensitive guy who did his thesis on "capturing emotion in photography" and was going to some super-tiny liberal arts school after taking a gap year in Guatemala to shoe the homeless (whom I totally expected to see), there was also this huge football playing type who had done his thesis on some sort of nautical technology who was going to Texas A&M to start his career in the navy (whom I totally did NOT expect to see)... and next to him was the stereotypical looking Jewish kid who learned to fly during his thesis and was going to Georgia Tech's aerospace program (again, wasn't expecting that).

Overall, I came away with a pretty positive impression of it... but just wasn't sure it was the right fit for us.

Which part scared you? There is definitely a spiritual component that I think could be off-putting for some, particularly because it isn't well defined... it's hard to explain. Damon thought it might be a cult, LOL. I'm not sure about all that, but it's definitely a close-knit community (at least here in Austin), but I'm not sure that's a bad thing.

mctex · Guru

crystal wrote:

mctex wrote:

gogona wrote:

mctex wrote:

Alexandra is staying at the International Baccalaureate school we currently have her in. We're pretty excited about it... I really love the curriculum and approach, and her comprehension of Spanish is pretty amazing (it's an immersion program). I wanted to hold her back a year (I was young for my grade, and was hoping she wouldn't be), but her teachers feel pretty strongly about putting her into K next year.

The public school near us is supposed to be fantastic... but the school is HUGE, with 21 kindergarten classes (each with the normal 21-ish students) and over 1,000 students in the elementary school. Does that seem crazy big to anyone else? (My elementary school had 2 kindergartens, LOL)

I am a little confused because I thought that IBs were programs that schools had. For example, my sister graduated from Jakarta International School that had an international baccalaureate (IB) program which basically means that the school has college classes incorporated during 12th and 13th? (if I remember correctly) grades and after the completion of the program, kids can skip the first years of college/university and jump into 3rd year of college.

The IB has a primary, middle years and diploma program. Alexandra's school is currently just a primary school, but the plan is to add the other grades as the years progress.

Here's the site for the IB...
http://ibo.org/mission/

...and here's the info on the primary program.
http://ibo.org/pyp/

The IB was actually founded to create a worldwide standardized education for people who travel a lot, so they could be assured that their child would be able to easily move from one school to another. You might want to check it out... the Washington International School is probably the strongest IB program in the country (although SUPER expensive). :)

this sounds a lot like mason's school. he goes to the International School of Amsterdam. it is great because he is in a class with 16 kids from 10 different countries. i love that.

i will say though, i'm not sure i would want him to be in it long term because the people leave all.the.time. he has already had 4 of the 16 kids in his class leave to go to another country. luckily it wasn't one of the kids that he plays with the most or he would have been devastated. i just don't like the constant in and out. is it like that at A's school? do you find that to be an advantage because it is getting them used to change? just curious

-- Edited by crystal on Monday 18th of January 2010 12:53:22 PM

A's school is just in its first year, so it's kind of hard to know what to expect.

While the curriculum was designed for portability, I think its popularity has grown for other reasons (there are quite a few public schools in the US that are rolling it out).

I'm not expecting A's school to be super transient... because Austin isn't a super transient kind of place. If it ended up that way, no, I don't think I'd like it. Assuming that we stay in Austin for the long term (a decision that is currently under review :) ), I'm not sure we'll leave them there past elementary/junior high, because I think a larger high school would probably be better preparation for the world that is college (assuming they choose to go).

But I do love the inquiry-based curriculum for the little ones... and Alexandra seems to as well.

Where does Efe want to move that he thinks would be good for his career? When is his program complete?

Alison · Guru

mctex wrote:

Alison wrote:

Tex, am I on crack or had you considered sending A to a Waldorf school at one point?

I've done some reading on Waldorf recently and it kind of frightens me, LOL. I was just wondering what your experience was with them.

Yes, we were looking pretty hard at the Waldorf school here in Austin.

The appeal for me was in their heavy play emphasis... like they really encourage imagination (talking about wizards and shit, which definitely freaked me out at first, LOL). But with this comes a strong exploration of the arts (all kids must learn how to knit, all kids must play an instrument), and that really appealed to me. The trade-off, of course, was that they postpone a lot of academic stuff... well, specifically reading, which they don't introduce until the second grade.

Personally, I'm willing to take hits on the academics (in the short term) to foster the love of learning, so that wasn't too problematic for me. (That, and Alexandra is already reading, so it's easy for me to say "put it off" when I know that's more than likely going to be one of her stronger areas overall, if that makes sense.) But they also have this "no media until junior high" policy that prohibits all TV, pop music, movies, computer, etc... and while in a quaint way, it sort of appealed to me, the reality is that it was not a good fit for our family overall. For example, when I went to visit the Austin campus for Grandparents/Special Friends Day, I overheard a conversation between third grade parents where one's son had asked for an iTouch (apparently, a kid on his baseball team had one), and the mother said that MAYBE if he kept on top of his chores for the rest of the semester that for his birthday she would select ONE game for him to play occasionally on her phone. Now switch to my house, where the day before Alexandra is so familiar with my phone that she had tried to download her own game (she already had like 20 she was bored with) and was asking for my password. (LOL!) So, yeah, I think we'd have a hard time fitting in there.

I will say that I was really impressed with the graduating seniors they had on a panel during that visit, and the unexpected diversity. Seniors are required to do a thesis on a topic of their choosing, and while you did have the sensitive guy who did his thesis on "capturing emotion in photography" and was going to some super-tiny liberal arts school after taking a gap year in Guatemala to shoe the homeless (whom I totally expected to see), there was also this huge football playing type who had done his thesis on some sort of nautical technology who was going to Texas A&M to start his career in the navy (whom I totally did NOT expect to see)... and next to him was the stereotypical looking Jewish kid who learned to fly during his thesis and was going to Georgia Tech's aerospace program (again, wasn't expecting that).

Overall, I came away with a pretty positive impression of it... but just wasn't sure it was the right fit for us.

Which part scared you? There is definitely a spiritual component that I think could be off-putting for some, particularly because it isn't well defined... it's hard to explain. Damon thought it might be a cult, LOL. I'm not sure about all that, but it's definitely a close-knit community (at least here in Austin), but I'm not sure that's a bad thing.

I totally get Damon's thinking it might be a cult! It just seems so rigid and strict, especially the aspects that spill over into home life.

Then I was led to this link, which I take with a huge grain of salt, but it was a bit unsettling: http://www.waldorfcritics.org/

And my interest in Waldorf was just pure curiosity - I never intended to send Mason to a Waldorf school, as like you, it just wouldn't be the right fit for him/us. But I have heard very positive things overall, and like any school or philosophy, there are going to be teachers/administrators that give a negative impression.

mctex · Guru

Alison wrote:

mctex wrote:

Alison wrote:

Tex, am I on crack or had you considered sending A to a Waldorf school at one point?

I've done some reading on Waldorf recently and it kind of frightens me, LOL. I was just wondering what your experience was with them.

Yes, we were looking pretty hard at the Waldorf school here in Austin.

The appeal for me was in their heavy play emphasis... like they really encourage imagination (talking about wizards and shit, which definitely freaked me out at first, LOL). But with this comes a strong exploration of the arts (all kids must learn how to knit, all kids must play an instrument), and that really appealed to me. The trade-off, of course, was that they postpone a lot of academic stuff... well, specifically reading, which they don't introduce until the second grade.

Personally, I'm willing to take hits on the academics (in the short term) to foster the love of learning, so that wasn't too problematic for me. (That, and Alexandra is already reading, so it's easy for me to say "put it off" when I know that's more than likely going to be one of her stronger areas overall, if that makes sense.) But they also have this "no media until junior high" policy that prohibits all TV, pop music, movies, computer, etc... and while in a quaint way, it sort of appealed to me, the reality is that it was not a good fit for our family overall. For example, when I went to visit the Austin campus for Grandparents/Special Friends Day, I overheard a conversation between third grade parents where one's son had asked for an iTouch (apparently, a kid on his baseball team had one), and the mother said that MAYBE if he kept on top of his chores for the rest of the semester that for his birthday she would select ONE game for him to play occasionally on her phone. Now switch to my house, where the day before Alexandra is so familiar with my phone that she had tried to download her own game (she already had like 20 she was bored with) and was asking for my password. (LOL!) So, yeah, I think we'd have a hard time fitting in there.

I will say that I was really impressed with the graduating seniors they had on a panel during that visit, and the unexpected diversity. Seniors are required to do a thesis on a topic of their choosing, and while you did have the sensitive guy who did his thesis on "capturing emotion in photography" and was going to some super-tiny liberal arts school after taking a gap year in Guatemala to shoe the homeless (whom I totally expected to see), there was also this huge football playing type who had done his thesis on some sort of nautical technology who was going to Texas A&M to start his career in the navy (whom I totally did NOT expect to see)... and next to him was the stereotypical looking Jewish kid who learned to fly during his thesis and was going to Georgia Tech's aerospace program (again, wasn't expecting that).

Overall, I came away with a pretty positive impression of it... but just wasn't sure it was the right fit for us.

Which part scared you? There is definitely a spiritual component that I think could be off-putting for some, particularly because it isn't well defined... it's hard to explain. Damon thought it might be a cult, LOL. I'm not sure about all that, but it's definitely a close-knit community (at least here in Austin), but I'm not sure that's a bad thing.

I totally get Damon's thinking it might be a cult! It just seems so rigid and strict, especially the aspects that spill over into home life.
Then I was led to this link, which I take with a huge grain of salt, but it was a bit unsettling: http://www.waldorfcritics.org/
And my interest in Waldorf was just pure curiosity - I never intended to send Mason to a Waldorf school, as like you, it just wouldn't be the right fit for him/us. But I have heard very positive things overall, and like any school or philosophy, there are going to be teachers/administrators that give a negative impression.

On the whole, I don't have a problem with anthroposophy, because I'm comfortable with a spiritual component to my kids' education. If they're teaching specifics about reincarnation -- which, in talking to current Waldorf parents, that doesn't seem to be the case -- I'm not cool with that. I'm not really so concerned about where something gets its origins so much as I am what it's like today.

I think the problem Waldorf has is that the holistic approach (i.e., the crunchy stuff) often attracts a particular type of family that is not into the spiritual stuff, so when they find out it's there, they flip. In fact, I think the first place I heard of Waldorf was from Hiker Jen here on MS... from what I remember of what she shared, I'm guessing the spiritual component would not be appealing to her. I wonder if she is still planning on sending her kids there.

But you're right about the rigidity, and once I really began to understand it, I realized it's pretty much counter to what I'm trying to find.

3s_a_crowd · Guru

We have finally decided to send kaylen to the school at our church after a lot of thought. Im happy with this decision.

Alyssa · Guru

crystal wrote:

Alyssa wrote:

crystal wrote:

i *think* mason will be starting K, but we aren't sure where yet. there is a possibility that we will stay one more year in amsterdam, and if that happens he will stay in the school he is in how. but, likely we will move back to the states, but we aren't sure back to indy. i would like to go to indy but efe thinks it wouldn't be the best move for his career, so we will see.

I think Indy makes the most sense. Just saying...

i'm thinking mason and i can move to indy and efe can move somewhere else ;)

I'm ok with that. He probably still wouldn't let us be friends because I'm one of the internets.

sbucking · Guru

Just wondering....

If I were to send Kaylin to the public schools, our district has a Kindergarten building. All the half day kinders from the whole district are in one school. If the kids are going to full day K, then those classes are housed at each elementary school.

Anyone else's district set up like this? K, 1-5, 6-8, 9-12

Sara · Guru

sbucking wrote:

Just wondering....

If I were to send Kaylin to the public schools, our district has a Kindergarten building. All the half day kinders from the whole district are in one school. If the kids are going to full day K, then those classes are housed at each elementary school.

Anyone else's district set up like this? K, 1-5, 6-8, 9-12

Ours is K-5, 6-8 and 9-12

Cuppycake · Guru

sbucking wrote:

Just wondering....

If I were to send Kaylin to the public schools, our district has a Kindergarten building. All the half day kinders from the whole district are in one school. If the kids are going to full day K, then those classes are housed at each elementary school.

Anyone else's district set up like this? K, 1-5, 6-8, 9-12

My hometown does that... it gets very mixed reviews. But it is growing to other neighboring districts that have buildings that they are cutting due to budget problems. (My hometown didn't have budget problems. I'm not sure why they did it, lol.)

CheleLyn · Senior Member

Daniel will be going to Kinder at the public school where he is now going to Pre-K...assuming we still live in this district.

CheleLyn · Senior Member

mctex wrote:

Alexandra is staying at the International Baccalaureate school we currently have her in. We're pretty excited about it... I really love the curriculum and approach, and her comprehension of Spanish is pretty amazing (it's an immersion program). I wanted to hold her back a year (I was young for my grade, and was hoping she wouldn't be), but her teachers feel pretty strongly about putting her into K next year.

The public school near us is supposed to be fantastic... but the school is HUGE, with 21 kindergarten classes (each with the normal 21-ish students) and over 1,000 students in the elementary school. Does that seem crazy big to anyone else? (My elementary school had 2 kindergartens, LOL)

Holy hell! That's insane....The public school Daniel goes to only has 2 classes of each grade PreK-5th.

CheleLyn · Senior Member

daisy wrote:

those of you with full day public, is there a phase-in situation? i think R goes half days till october or nov, not exactly sure, just to get them used to it. i like this idea :)

Daniel went from being home with me ALL.DAY.EVERY.DAY. staright to all day PreK. In prek they do 45 min nap time at the end of the day, i dont think they nap in Kinder.

daisy · Guru

CheleLyn wrote:

mctex wrote:

Alexandra is staying at the International Baccalaureate school we currently have her in. We're pretty excited about it... I really love the curriculum and approach, and her comprehension of Spanish is pretty amazing (it's an immersion program). I wanted to hold her back a year (I was young for my grade, and was hoping she wouldn't be), but her teachers feel pretty strongly about putting her into K next year.

The public school near us is supposed to be fantastic... but the school is HUGE, with 21 kindergarten classes (each with the normal 21-ish students) and over 1,000 students in the elementary school. Does that seem crazy big to anyone else? (My elementary school had 2 kindergartens, LOL)

Holy hell! That's insane....The public school Daniel goes to only has 2 classes of each grade PreK-5th.

i agree, that's CRAZY BIG! we live in a relatively large "small town" (everything is very populated here) - we have 4 kindergarten classes, and i think it's 20 kids in a class. when i went to kindergarten in this town 30 yrs ago, it was two classes, but back then they had a morning and afternoon session, so i guess technically that's still 4 classes.
i graduated HS in this district with 145 kids.

daisy · Guru

mctex wrote:

Alison wrote:

mctex wrote:

Alison wrote:

Tex, am I on crack or had you considered sending A to a Waldorf school at one point?

I've done some reading on Waldorf recently and it kind of frightens me, LOL. I was just wondering what your experience was with them.

Yes, we were looking pretty hard at the Waldorf school here in Austin.

The appeal for me was in their heavy play emphasis... like they really encourage imagination (talking about wizards and shit, which definitely freaked me out at first, LOL). But with this comes a strong exploration of the arts (all kids must learn how to knit, all kids must play an instrument), and that really appealed to me. The trade-off, of course, was that they postpone a lot of academic stuff... well, specifically reading, which they don't introduce until the second grade.

Personally, I'm willing to take hits on the academics (in the short term) to foster the love of learning, so that wasn't too problematic for me. (That, and Alexandra is already reading, so it's easy for me to say "put it off" when I know that's more than likely going to be one of her stronger areas overall, if that makes sense.) But they also have this "no media until junior high" policy that prohibits all TV, pop music, movies, computer, etc... and while in a quaint way, it sort of appealed to me, the reality is that it was not a good fit for our family overall. For example, when I went to visit the Austin campus for Grandparents/Special Friends Day, I overheard a conversation between third grade parents where one's son had asked for an iTouch (apparently, a kid on his baseball team had one), and the mother said that MAYBE if he kept on top of his chores for the rest of the semester that for his birthday she would select ONE game for him to play occasionally on her phone. Now switch to my house, where the day before Alexandra is so familiar with my phone that she had tried to download her own game (she already had like 20 she was bored with) and was asking for my password. (LOL!) So, yeah, I think we'd have a hard time fitting in there.

I will say that I was really impressed with the graduating seniors they had on a panel during that visit, and the unexpected diversity. Seniors are required to do a thesis on a topic of their choosing, and while you did have the sensitive guy who did his thesis on "capturing emotion in photography" and was going to some super-tiny liberal arts school after taking a gap year in Guatemala to shoe the homeless (whom I totally expected to see), there was also this huge football playing type who had done his thesis on some sort of nautical technology who was going to Texas A&M to start his career in the navy (whom I totally did NOT expect to see)... and next to him was the stereotypical looking Jewish kid who learned to fly during his thesis and was going to Georgia Tech's aerospace program (again, wasn't expecting that).

Overall, I came away with a pretty positive impression of it... but just wasn't sure it was the right fit for us.

Which part scared you? There is definitely a spiritual component that I think could be off-putting for some, particularly because it isn't well defined... it's hard to explain. Damon thought it might be a cult, LOL. I'm not sure about all that, but it's definitely a close-knit community (at least here in Austin), but I'm not sure that's a bad thing.

I totally get Damon's thinking it might be a cult! It just seems so rigid and strict, especially the aspects that spill over into home life.
Then I was led to this link, which I take with a huge grain of salt, but it was a bit unsettling: http://www.waldorfcritics.org/
And my interest in Waldorf was just pure curiosity - I never intended to send Mason to a Waldorf school, as like you, it just wouldn't be the right fit for him/us. But I have heard very positive things overall, and like any school or philosophy, there are going to be teachers/administrators that give a negative impression.

On the whole, I don't have a problem with anthroposophy, because I'm comfortable with a spiritual component to my kids' education. If they're teaching specifics about reincarnation -- which, in talking to current Waldorf parents, that doesn't seem to be the case -- I'm not cool with that. I'm not really so concerned about where something gets its origins so much as I am what it's like today.

I think the problem Waldorf has is that the holistic approach (i.e., the crunchy stuff) often attracts a particular type of family that is not into the spiritual stuff, so when they find out it's there, they flip. In fact, I think the first place I heard of Waldorf was from Hiker Jen here on MS... from what I remember of what she shared, I'm guessing the spiritual component would not be appealing to her. I wonder if she is still planning on sending her kids there.

But you're right about the rigidity, and once I really began to understand it, I realized it's pretty much counter to what I'm trying to find.

ever since hiker jen, i've been fascinated with the whole waldorf thing (but more just the dolls - lmao - i havent been fascinated enough to actually read anything about it).
i'm just wondering though, about the arts focus...i'm surprised that they'd "put off" reading and focus on stuff like knitting and a musical instrument, just bc developmental-wise, dont certain skills simply come first? i've always been taught that children who can already read have an easier time reading music (in fact i've been told a thousand times that you really shouldnt teach your child to read music until they *can* read words). and also, knitting before reading? really? rachel's been reading a while now but there's no WAY her fine motors are up to the knitting level!! the kid can barely get her socks on!! how do they figure out the timing of all of this? do you have a link? i'd love to see what sort of crafts they're doing with kids in K and 1st.

i'm quite sure waldorf wouldnt be for me - i'm SO traditional when it comes to education. traditional to a fault i'd say. however, i do plan to start my kids on an instrument in kindergarten (at home), and i plan to teach them how to knit and crochet and whatever other crafts i have up my sleeve as soon as they're coordinated enough. i think this stuff is super important.

isalandak · Senior Member

daisy wrote:

R's going to full day public K.
we live in a great district, and i am so looking forward to her getting her education here. this is the school system i went through, so that's sort of neat too.
her teachers think she's definitely ready.

Braxton will be going into pubic K next year. I think it is neat where our new house is Braxton will be going to the same Middle and high school as me.

isalandak · Senior Member

sappy wrote:

Mikey isn't ready for K but our school system is great and has something called Early Childhood Kindergarten. It's basically a pre-Kindergarten at the elementary school (instead of the separate district preschool building) for kids who aren't ready for K or who are special needs. You have to qualify and I am sure Mikey will - so it's free. 5 days a week 2.5 hours a day. I wish it was longer because I think my kids need more and thrive on the schedule.

Next year I'll have 3 of my 4 kids in school at least 1/2 days 5 days a week!

This sounds like the program that Braxton is in. But its only for 3-4 year olds. He has done great since being there.

Alison · Guru

isalandak wrote:

daisy wrote:

R's going to full day public K.
we live in a great district, and i am so looking forward to her getting her education here. this is the school system i went through, so that's sort of neat too.
her teachers think she's definitely ready.

Braxton will be going into pubic K next year. I think it is neat where our new house is Braxton will be going to the same Middle and high school as me.

daisy · Guru

Alison wrote:

isalandak wrote:

daisy wrote:

R's going to full day public K.
we live in a great district, and i am so looking forward to her getting her education here. this is the school system i went through, so that's sort of neat too.
her teachers think she's definitely ready.

Braxton will be going into pubic K next year. I think it is neat where our new house is Braxton will be going to the same Middle and high school as me.

evelyn and mason are SO CUTE in that siggy alison. i cant. they look so much alike!!