Bad marriages and children

CoffeeQueen · Guru

RE: Bad marriages and children

Michele · Senior Member

CoffeeQueen wrote:

CheleLyn wrote:

CoffeeQueen wrote:

mctex wrote:

Lizzy wrote:

CoffeeQueen wrote:

Why do people who have bad marriages keep having kids? Do people think children will make their marriage stronger?

It really boggles my mind as to why people do this. I am constantly in awe of people that tell me one day their marriage sucks and yada yada, but then not a week later tell met they are trying to get pregnant or have kids.

Does anyone else get annoyed by this or is it just me?

I am sure this is a sensitive subject for some people, but when we really strip it down there has to be a reason for it. People may not want to admit it, but there has to be a reason?

Do the kids benefit from this?

Idk Melissa. This post is so vague it makes me wonder what brought all this up? Was it that movie Revolutionary Road because yes, that was a truly dysfunctional marriage!!

But people have children for all sorts of reasons -what makes one the "right" one?

I, too, am curious as to why this ruffles your feathers so much. I definitely share your disdain for people who think that what is happening in their marital life has no impact on their children (or at least none worthy of consideration), BUT not sure I get the intensity of the heat.

I haven't seen Revolutionary Road. Should I?

Oh gosh, do not watch it. It is very disturbing. It does not ruffle my feathers per say. It is one of those things in life where I shake my head and say why. If people can agree with me that your marital life does have impact on your children. How come one cannot see how it can be troublesome for someone who talks to children daily and sees the pain ? I mean I am not even a counselor and I see the pain and hear it. I guess the intensity comes from the fact that it just keeps happening over and over and people cannot pull their heads out of their ass long enough to stop to see the damage they are causing in their wake. I mean I am sure many set out with good intentions. I just know for me I always think long term and how my decisions will effect my children in just about everything I do. I guess I have a hard time when people do not do the same. I know not everything is black and white. I also do not care when it is just two adults in the relationship. Shit. they can beat the crap out of each other if they want. I want to know the thought process that occurs when a women in a bad marriage stops and says I should bring another child into this.

Sorry, but this one GOT me....as it is said as someone who has NOT been in an abusive relationship...having your face beat up...being isolated from your friends and family...having your belly stomped when you end up pregnant as the result of a beating and rape by your "loving husband"....having to call the police who don't take him away despite the bruising on your body and behind your ear and on your face...being slapped so dammn hard you have ringing in your ear for DAYS! Dealing with it for YEARS because you are scared to leave...but scared to stay...and have been told how worthless and useless you are so who else could even stabd to look at you!

No, they can't just beat the crap out of each other if they want to...and getting out of it is NOT easy and is often dangerous!
Do NOT stand in judgement or make such statements until you know exactly what you are talking about.

As for what a woman's thought process is....many times...she does GET a thought process on it...HE makes that decision for her!

First, I am going to go easy hear because I think that is awfulwhat you had to live through . If you knew me you would know where I stand on abuse. If you knew me you would know what my first marriage was like. I understand that statement hitting a nerve with you, but by no means was I condoning it. I was trying to get across the point that two adults having issues is one thing. Bringing a child into that issue is another.

I have very close experience with women being scared to leave. I was married to a man that came from an abusive family and have many stories that I do not care to share here. So, I do kind of know what I am talking about when it comes to abuse. I have witnessed what you have mentioned above and it is an awful cycle and so hard to get out of. I get it, but I do not get how then that women can go on to have kids and let them get beat or treated like that or witness that. Maybe that sounds harsh to some here or to those who have lived through an abusive relationship, because I know that when you are in one you can justify many things and many times things are done out of fear, but are these women having kids out of fear? I have this crazy notion in my head that I would never, ever let my kids see that kind of treatment or allow them to be in that environment. I would leave the dang country if I had to, but I realize that is me and it is also very obviously that not alll feel that way. I realize people are scared for their lives and that is why I wonder I wonder why have that child. Just because they want to have a kid? That does not seem sound to me.

Are you saying the women are forced to have another kid with this man? I have to imagine that in the cases I am thinking of that this is not the case, but can I 100% know, no I cannot.

I want to say that while I have often thought this as well, I also know that many times women in these relationships only know this type of relationship. A lot of times the abuse starts slowly and it becomes a way of life. They assume this is how all marriages (or relationships) are. The abuser alienates them from people therefore hindering them from seeing what is going on is wrong and not normal. This is clearly a bad marriage to me but not the type I am referencing in my posts.

I know you know who I am referencing Melissa but I will say that the children in the case I am close to were never abused physcially. Their daddy loved them very much which made it all the more difficult as to why he would kill their mommy and himself leaving them here to live the rest of their lives trying to survive this tragedy. His sick way of showing them his love was to not kill them.

Sorry I went OT there but this is a very close subject matter to my heart these days.

mctex · Guru

CoffeeQueen wrote:

mctex wrote:

CoffeeQueen wrote:

muffy wrote:

mctex wrote:

Juni wrote:

I've read a lot of this on my phone so I'm sorry if I've missed things.

Tex - definitely the situations I see are different but a lot of times there are a lot of similar things and since people were asking for some definitions of "bad" marriage I just listed what I've seen. I know people were becoming really defensive and I was just listing those situations where maybe I felt a bit justified in being judgmental - well, in being able to tell myself, hey that IS a bad situation.

Re: having the children vs. not having them - I did think you were talking in general terms (tex) so that was my fault for assuming.

One other thing (and I think I'm done) is that it's just really hard - emotionally especially - when you have parents come and tell you all these things (and some aren't even as horrible as I shared) and really paint a picture of a bad family environment and then come a week later to share their good (pregnancy) news and expect you to be excited. It happens a lot and it is so hard because all you know is all this bad stuff - and not the normal ups and downs - but then on a dime they flip and expect you to be generally happy. It is hard.

Oh, ITTTTTTTTA... I tend to have a problem in general when people are clearly contradicting themselves or acting in a way that seems to be at odds with something else they've said/done. (I think that's how I once got in a lot of trouble on this board... LOL!)

juni and texx - you both hit the key point i am struggling with here. and i think it relates to the very original post... not the grossly abusive situation, but the friend/aquaintance who gives the impression that their relationship is crappy, then they want you to be happy when they get preggo...

just about a month ago i had a friend in lux, american gal with french hubby, her son and timmy are bball bff's... she just got back from a 3 week vacay in the states alone with her 4 sons, got back and was sooooo frustrated - hubby had 3 weeks of "free time" and basically was doing jack-all nothing to help with the family after their return. she vented to me - and the conversation was a surprise somewhat. i knew from how she kept her house (in a constant disarray...) working full time like i used to, etc. she was frazzled. she dumped and vented to me about marital probs. i was a good sounding board. she said to me "if it wasn't for the 4 boys i would divorce him because he brings nothing to our relationship" it was hard to hear. we talked a while, i give reflective questions... i think she needed an ear.

2 weeks later we met for lunch - totally different picture of her and hubby. she did thank me and said our convo helped her clear her anger and she was able to calmly talk to him and work out some of their issues.

my point:

it was a vent. was she "really" going to divorce him - no. but she was frustrated. again to the point of my first point - when you are only getting a small glimpse, or only a few words, and melissa and juni - i believe in your specific situations where parents may tell you a few things - it probably is only a vent - and you seem like "safe" people to vent to for them as you are not really friend or family... that maybe. just maybe. their relationship/marriage is not all gloom and doom and that it is a simple vent. and maybe their marriage is better than they let on in your limited exposure to them. and that if they do get preggo - maybe its not a horrible thing. and maybe their marriage is much better than they let on if they gave you a vent. and maybe they really truly are happy to be having a child and their relationship is not all doom and gloom.

tbh, i find it easier to give the occasional vent here on Ms rather than to friends or family IRL absolutely for the reason that this is a "safe" place to vent as you are not in my irl everyday life and my vent wont get back to dh or other family members - kwim? is it not possible that these parents that occasionally complain to you, its only just that?

Megan, I agree that happens, but honestly this is not what I am seeing. This is not parents just venting to me. I have been with some of these families for 10 years now. It is not just an occasional issue. Most have ended in divorce and other crazy stories that I cannot share since I would lose my job if I typed out on her. This is witnessing children and their behavior, issues. Classroom teachers deal with it at conferences, etc. This is just not me in my job that sees this. If I could get others on here to explain it, I would, but I cannot.
I guess just as people are assuming I have this judgemental view on every marriage and if someone says something about their husband or wife to me I judge it. This is not the case.

Melissa, I don't think anyone is doubting your experiences or observations.

They're still a little uneasy because of your original statement, which you yourself have admitted was extremely unclear.

I honestly think if we really got down to details, most of us would be in agreement. The people that are arguing with you are taking issue with your original definition (the yada yada bit), NOT that your observations at work aren't real or worthy of concern.

Oh, believe you me I wish I made it more clear from the get go, but honestly am not sure even with what I feel that is still not good enough for some and that is ok with me.

I feel like I am getting the impression that people really do not know what a bad marriage is? However, I think they know, but do not want to admit.

Can I ask this question. If you take a 5 year chunk out of a marriage. If you always fight, feel unloved over 50% of the time, feel disrespected, feel lost. Do you classify that as a bad/healthy marriage? This is more along the lines of where I was mentally when I started. I know it has then gone into every other arena and those are also valid points.

How do you feel justified to make the assertion in green just because people got defensive to your original statement?

Wait... hang on. What people are you talking about? The people who have responded to this thread, or people in general? I think you need to be clear on this. It *sounds* like you're saying that because people in this thread don't agree with you (and again, I think it's more they don't agree with what you said than what you actually meant, now that you've mostly clarified yourself) they don't know what a good marriage means. Surely that's NOT what you're saying, is it???

My personal answer to your question is this -- if I were in a situation where I *ever* felt unloved, disrespected or lost, I'd be calling that shit out on the carpet immediately... fuck 50% of the time. But that's me.

But I'm not sure how that's relevant, UNLESS you're saying that you think people who have disagreed with you on this thread don't know what it means to have a good marriage.

mctex · Guru

Michele wrote:

I want to say that while I have often thought this as well, I also know that many times women in these relationships only know this type of relationship. A lot of times the abuse starts slowly and it becomes a way of life. They assume this is how all marriages (or relationships) are. The abuser alienates them from people therefore hindering them from seeing what is going on is wrong and not normal. This is clearly a bad marriage to me but not the type I am referencing in my posts.

I know you know who I am referencing Melissa but I will say that the children in the case I am close to were never abused physcially. Their daddy loved them very much which made it all the more difficult as to why he would kill their mommy and himself leaving them here to live the rest of their lives trying to survive this tragedy. His sick way of showing them his love was to not kill them.

Sorry I went OT there but this is a very close subject matter to my heart these days.

Michele, tbh, I thought of your friend Heather when this conversation started.

I am still greatly saddened by that whole thing, and I didn't know her or her children. I can only imagine how you must feel. :(

But the reason she came into my mind was that I feel like there are people who would look at her situation as black and white and think to themselves, "how in the hell could a normal person marry someone -- let alone have children with someone -- who could do something like this"? And want to write her off as a nutjob.

Myself, I look at it as "if not for the grace of God", and pray for those children every freaking day. (Not that I feel like I have reason to fear for my life, obviously, but rather that I believe that we all start off as blank slates, and some fucked up things must've happened to both of them along the way to end up in that tragic situation. Like that's not something that someone healthy just decides to do one day... that process had to have been gradual, KWIM?)

If those kids wish they'd never been born, man... who could fault them. But do you think they do? Because the trauma doesn't get any worse than that. And I guess that's what I'm saying. I'm not saying that we don't/can't/should hurt our children. I'm just saying that I've always thought the argument was a little absurd to say that they shouldn't have been born. Because for those kids, it's not like they had a choice. They are a product of those two people, and it was either this or nothing.

CoffeeQueen · Guru

mctex wrote:

CoffeeQueen wrote:

mctex wrote:

CoffeeQueen wrote:

muffy wrote:

mctex wrote:

Juni wrote:

I've read a lot of this on my phone so I'm sorry if I've missed things.

Tex - definitely the situations I see are different but a lot of times there are a lot of similar things and since people were asking for some definitions of "bad" marriage I just listed what I've seen. I know people were becoming really defensive and I was just listing those situations where maybe I felt a bit justified in being judgmental - well, in being able to tell myself, hey that IS a bad situation.

Re: having the children vs. not having them - I did think you were talking in general terms (tex) so that was my fault for assuming.

One other thing (and I think I'm done) is that it's just really hard - emotionally especially - when you have parents come and tell you all these things (and some aren't even as horrible as I shared) and really paint a picture of a bad family environment and then come a week later to share their good (pregnancy) news and expect you to be excited. It happens a lot and it is so hard because all you know is all this bad stuff - and not the normal ups and downs - but then on a dime they flip and expect you to be generally happy. It is hard.

Oh, ITTTTTTTTA... I tend to have a problem in general when people are clearly contradicting themselves or acting in a way that seems to be at odds with something else they've said/done. (I think that's how I once got in a lot of trouble on this board... LOL!)

juni and texx - you both hit the key point i am struggling with here. and i think it relates to the very original post... not the grossly abusive situation, but the friend/aquaintance who gives the impression that their relationship is crappy, then they want you to be happy when they get preggo...

just about a month ago i had a friend in lux, american gal with french hubby, her son and timmy are bball bff's... she just got back from a 3 week vacay in the states alone with her 4 sons, got back and was sooooo frustrated - hubby had 3 weeks of "free time" and basically was doing jack-all nothing to help with the family after their return. she vented to me - and the conversation was a surprise somewhat. i knew from how she kept her house (in a constant disarray...) working full time like i used to, etc. she was frazzled. she dumped and vented to me about marital probs. i was a good sounding board. she said to me "if it wasn't for the 4 boys i would divorce him because he brings nothing to our relationship" it was hard to hear. we talked a while, i give reflective questions... i think she needed an ear.

2 weeks later we met for lunch - totally different picture of her and hubby. she did thank me and said our convo helped her clear her anger and she was able to calmly talk to him and work out some of their issues.

my point:

it was a vent. was she "really" going to divorce him - no. but she was frustrated. again to the point of my first point - when you are only getting a small glimpse, or only a few words, and melissa and juni - i believe in your specific situations where parents may tell you a few things - it probably is only a vent - and you seem like "safe" people to vent to for them as you are not really friend or family... that maybe. just maybe. their relationship/marriage is not all gloom and doom and that it is a simple vent. and maybe their marriage is better than they let on in your limited exposure to them. and that if they do get preggo - maybe its not a horrible thing. and maybe their marriage is much better than they let on if they gave you a vent. and maybe they really truly are happy to be having a child and their relationship is not all doom and gloom.

tbh, i find it easier to give the occasional vent here on Ms rather than to friends or family IRL absolutely for the reason that this is a "safe" place to vent as you are not in my irl everyday life and my vent wont get back to dh or other family members - kwim? is it not possible that these parents that occasionally complain to you, its only just that?

Megan, I agree that happens, but honestly this is not what I am seeing. This is not parents just venting to me. I have been with some of these families for 10 years now. It is not just an occasional issue. Most have ended in divorce and other crazy stories that I cannot share since I would lose my job if I typed out on her. This is witnessing children and their behavior, issues. Classroom teachers deal with it at conferences, etc. This is just not me in my job that sees this. If I could get others on here to explain it, I would, but I cannot.
I guess just as people are assuming I have this judgemental view on every marriage and if someone says something about their husband or wife to me I judge it. This is not the case.

Melissa, I don't think anyone is doubting your experiences or observations.

They're still a little uneasy because of your original statement, which you yourself have admitted was extremely unclear.

I honestly think if we really got down to details, most of us would be in agreement. The people that are arguing with you are taking issue with your original definition (the yada yada bit), NOT that your observations at work aren't real or worthy of concern.

Oh, believe you me I wish I made it more clear from the get go, but honestly am not sure even with what I feel that is still not good enough for some and that is ok with me.

I feel like I am getting the impression that people really do not know what a bad marriage is? However, I think they know, but do not want to admit.

Can I ask this question. If you take a 5 year chunk out of a marriage. If you always fight, feel unloved over 50% of the time, feel disrespected, feel lost. Do you classify that as a bad/healthy marriage? This is more along the lines of where I was mentally when I started. I know it has then gone into every other arena and those are also valid points.

How do you feel justified to make the assertion in green just because people got defensive to your original statement?

Wait... hang on. What people are you talking about? The people who have responded to this thread, or people in general? I think you need to be clear on this. It *sounds* like you're saying that because people in this thread don't agree with you (and again, I think it's more they don't agree with what you said than what you actually meant, now that you've mostly clarified yourself) they don't know what a good marriage means. Surely that's NOT what you're saying, is it???

My personal answer to your question is this -- if I were in a situation where I *ever* felt unloved, disrespected or lost, I'd be calling that shit out on the carpet immediately... fuck 50% of the time. But that's me.

But I'm not sure how that's relevant, UNLESS you're saying that you think people who have disagreed with you on this thread don't know what it means to have a good marriage.

ugh, I am just confused on where the line is that everyone wants me to draw on what a bad or good marriage is.

This whole thread and time was not directed at the women here, but at the same time it is not that I think because they disagree with me or what they thought I meant. I just am still very lost in the whole bad marriage and how bad does bad have to be in order to make someone say "oh, ok, that is bad"

I am making no sense now. I have a 9 month old who is on a sleep strike and it is midnight here. I think if I keep typing my thoughts are no longer clear. It is all in my head. If you were here with me you could get the real scoop. I honestly hate trying to compose my thoughts on paper. I am a very verbal person.

CoffeeQueen · Guru

Michele wrote:

CoffeeQueen wrote:

CheleLyn wrote:

CoffeeQueen wrote:

mctex wrote:

Lizzy wrote:

CoffeeQueen wrote:

Why do people who have bad marriages keep having kids? Do people think children will make their marriage stronger?

It really boggles my mind as to why people do this. I am constantly in awe of people that tell me one day their marriage sucks and yada yada, but then not a week later tell met they are trying to get pregnant or have kids.

Does anyone else get annoyed by this or is it just me?

I am sure this is a sensitive subject for some people, but when we really strip it down there has to be a reason for it. People may not want to admit it, but there has to be a reason?

Do the kids benefit from this?

Idk Melissa. This post is so vague it makes me wonder what brought all this up? Was it that movie Revolutionary Road because yes, that was a truly dysfunctional marriage!!

But people have children for all sorts of reasons -what makes one the "right" one?

I, too, am curious as to why this ruffles your feathers so much. I definitely share your disdain for people who think that what is happening in their marital life has no impact on their children (or at least none worthy of consideration), BUT not sure I get the intensity of the heat.

I haven't seen Revolutionary Road. Should I?

Oh gosh, do not watch it. It is very disturbing. It does not ruffle my feathers per say. It is one of those things in life where I shake my head and say why. If people can agree with me that your marital life does have impact on your children. How come one cannot see how it can be troublesome for someone who talks to children daily and sees the pain ? I mean I am not even a counselor and I see the pain and hear it. I guess the intensity comes from the fact that it just keeps happening over and over and people cannot pull their heads out of their ass long enough to stop to see the damage they are causing in their wake. I mean I am sure many set out with good intentions. I just know for me I always think long term and how my decisions will effect my children in just about everything I do. I guess I have a hard time when people do not do the same. I know not everything is black and white. I also do not care when it is just two adults in the relationship. Shit. they can beat the crap out of each other if they want. I want to know the thought process that occurs when a women in a bad marriage stops and says I should bring another child into this.

Sorry, but this one GOT me....as it is said as someone who has NOT been in an abusive relationship...having your face beat up...being isolated from your friends and family...having your belly stomped when you end up pregnant as the result of a beating and rape by your "loving husband"....having to call the police who don't take him away despite the bruising on your body and behind your ear and on your face...being slapped so dammn hard you have ringing in your ear for DAYS! Dealing with it for YEARS because you are scared to leave...but scared to stay...and have been told how worthless and useless you are so who else could even stabd to look at you!

No, they can't just beat the crap out of each other if they want to...and getting out of it is NOT easy and is often dangerous!
Do NOT stand in judgement or make such statements until you know exactly what you are talking about.

As for what a woman's thought process is....many times...she does GET a thought process on it...HE makes that decision for her!

First, I am going to go easy hear because I think that is awfulwhat you had to live through . If you knew me you would know where I stand on abuse. If you knew me you would know what my first marriage was like. I understand that statement hitting a nerve with you, but by no means was I condoning it. I was trying to get across the point that two adults having issues is one thing. Bringing a child into that issue is another.

I have very close experience with women being scared to leave. I was married to a man that came from an abusive family and have many stories that I do not care to share here. So, I do kind of know what I am talking about when it comes to abuse. I have witnessed what you have mentioned above and it is an awful cycle and so hard to get out of. I get it, but I do not get how then that women can go on to have kids and let them get beat or treated like that or witness that. Maybe that sounds harsh to some here or to those who have lived through an abusive relationship, because I know that when you are in one you can justify many things and many times things are done out of fear, but are these women having kids out of fear? I have this crazy notion in my head that I would never, ever let my kids see that kind of treatment or allow them to be in that environment. I would leave the dang country if I had to, but I realize that is me and it is also very obviously that not alll feel that way. I realize people are scared for their lives and that is why I wonder I wonder why have that child. Just because they want to have a kid? That does not seem sound to me.

Are you saying the women are forced to have another kid with this man? I have to imagine that in the cases I am thinking of that this is not the case, but can I 100% know, no I cannot.

I want to say that while I have often thought this as well, I also know that many times women in these relationships only know this type of relationship. A lot of times the abuse starts slowly and it becomes a way of life. They assume this is how all marriages (or relationships) are. The abuser alienates them from people therefore hindering them from seeing what is going on is wrong and not normal. This is clearly a bad marriage to me but not the type I am referencing in my posts.

I know you know who I am referencing Melissa but I will say that the children in the case I am close to were never abused physcially. Their daddy loved them very much which made it all the more difficult as to why he would kill their mommy and himself leaving them here to live the rest of their lives trying to survive this tragedy. His sick way of showing them his love was to not kill them.

Sorry I went OT there but this is a very close subject matter to my heart these days.

I thought of Heather when this whole abuse came up.

No one knows here what I went through in my first marriage, but I know what an abuser does, been there and one that with the alienation, slow process of wearing down your self esteem, etc.

I do not want to argue this. This is very, very sad and I always think of this. I know what you mean and that is why I am going to just leave it at that.