Juni wrote:

---

 

daisy wrote:

---

 

CoffeeQueen wrote:

---

 

Dddiii wrote:

---

 

I know I said I am out of this, but did have to come back and say one thing because it is driving me mad.

I am in no way questioning the health of my marriage.  As I said in my first post, we had a rough year and came through on the other side.  I just can't leave it out there that you mentioned several times that I am.  No.  I am not.

When I said " And on the other side, I do see your point and now have to sit here and wonder if my marriage is healthy enough" what I should have said is that it made me wonder if my marriage was healthy enough on *your scale* to qualify as good and therefore won't screw up my child.


Edited b/c I really do want to be out of this topic.

-- Edited by Dddiii on Tuesday 25th of August 2009 08:47:41 AM

---

It is very hard to just list what a bad marriage is. There are so many factors. Am I calling out someone who fights? Honestly, fighting is not bad persay, but how you fight can be.

I mean if you feel you have a healthy marriage then it really does not pertain to you and you should not care what my scale is. You made that comment in red and that is why I said that. I did not start this post because of you and honestly everyone on here has complained at one time or another.

I do not have a scale. I guess if we are using the child as the scale then I do have one.

I guess it is so hard to explain unless you are witnessing it. I mean are there others on here that work with children that can see what I am talkiing about? Maybe I am way off. Sure, It can all be debated. I mean just google bad marriage and children and you will get tons of research. Is a bad marriage better then a good divorce, etc.

 

 

---

i'm late on this. sorry.
this is an interesting discussion.
i had dinner with friends this weekend - they have a kid and are having problems, but debating a second kid.
and yesterday i spent the day with someone without kids who is just newly divorced.  she's very relieved she didnt have kids in that marriage.
then i have a friend who has two kids and thought everything was great, little did she know he was cheating.

yes divorce for sure affects kids. everything does.
i just wonder, how do you know these kids' circumstances?
your original post seems to call into question those who have decided to have kids KNOWING their marriage wasnt great.
the kids you see at school who are affected by bad marriages - how do you know those marriages were bad at the time of conception? how do you know that those kids' families arent just in a rough patch, versus an "ACTUAL bad marriage" - ie, one that is just simply loveless.

i have a hard time understanding this. here i have one friend who's deciding on a child when her marriage is already rough.  and another who got the rug pulled out from under her and her family.  the kids will likely be affected in similar ways.  not sure if the reason for divorce, or the reason for conception, is all that relevant.
:dunno

most marriages arent bad from the start, obviously.
i would be willing to guess that the hundreds of kids who are suffering through their parents' issues did come from parents who loved each other at the time.  i bet only a small percentage were conceived in a "we dont love each other but lets have a kid anyway" kind of circumstance.

 

 

---

Kelly - I think it is more so when these families are already in the bad part of the marriage and then decide to TTC as opposed to the maybe the marriage was good at the time of conception, kwim?

 

---

muffy wrote:

---

 

mctex wrote:

---

 

Juni wrote:

---

I've read a lot of this on my phone so I'm sorry if I've missed things.

Tex - definitely the situations I see are different but a lot of times there are a lot of similar things and since people were asking for some definitions of "bad" marriage I just listed what I've seen. I know people were becoming really defensive and I was just listing those situations where maybe I felt a bit justified in being judgmental - well, in being able to tell myself, hey that IS a bad situation.

Re: having the children vs. not having them - I did think you were talking in general terms (tex) so that was my fault for assuming.

One other thing (and I think I'm done) is that it's just really hard - emotionally especially - when you have parents come and tell you all these things (and some aren't even as horrible as I shared) and really paint a picture of a bad family environment and then come a week later to share their good (pregnancy) news and expect you to be excited. It happens a lot and it is so hard because all you know is all this bad stuff - and not the normal ups and downs - but then on a dime they flip and expect you to be generally happy. It is hard.

---

Oh, ITTTTTTTTA... I tend to have a problem in general when people are clearly contradicting themselves or acting in a way that seems to be at odds with something else they've said/done. (I think that's how I once got in a lot of trouble on this board... LOL!)

 

 

---

juni and texx - you both hit the key point i am struggling with here.  and i think it relates to the very original post... not the grossly abusive situation, but the friend/aquaintance who gives the impression that their relationship is crappy, then they want you to be happy when they get preggo...

just about a month ago i had a friend in lux, american gal with french hubby, her son and timmy are bball bff's... she just got back from a 3 week vacay in the states alone with her 4 sons, got back and was sooooo frustrated - hubby had 3 weeks of "free time"  and basically was doing jack-all nothing to help with the family after their return.  she vented to me - and the conversation was a surprise somewhat.  i knew from how she kept her house (in a constant disarray...) working full time like i used to, etc.  she was frazzled.  she dumped and vented to me about marital probs.  i was a good sounding board.  she said to me "if it wasn't for the 4 boys i would divorce him because he brings nothing to our relationship"  it was hard to hear.  we talked a while, i give reflective questions... i think she needed an ear.

2 weeks later we met for lunch - totally different picture of her and hubby.  she did thank me and said our convo helped her clear her anger and she was able to calmly talk to him and work out some of their issues.

my point:

it was a vent.  was she "really"  going to divorce him - no.  but she was frustrated.  again to the point of my first point - when you are only getting a small glimpse, or only a few words, and melissa and juni - i believe in your specific situations where parents may tell you a few things - it probably is only a vent - and you seem like "safe" people to vent to for them as you are not really friend or family... that maybe. just maybe. their relationship/marriage is not all gloom and doom and that it is a simple vent.  and maybe their marriage is better than they let on in your limited exposure to them.  and that if they do get preggo - maybe its not a horrible thing. and maybe their marriage is much better than they let on if they gave you a vent. and maybe they really truly are happy to be having a child and their relationship is not all doom and gloom.

tbh, i find it easier to give the occasional vent here on Ms rather than to friends or family IRL absolutely for the reason that this is a "safe" place to vent as you are not in my irl everyday life and my vent wont get back to dh or other family members - kwim?  is it not possible that these parents that occasionally complain to you, its only just that?

 

 

---

Megan, I agree that happens, but honestly this is not what I am seeing. This is not parents just venting to me. I have been with some of these families for 10 years now. It is not just an occasional issue. Most have ended in divorce and other crazy stories that I cannot share since I would lose my job if I typed out on her. This is witnessing children and their behavior, issues. Classroom teachers deal with it at conferences, etc. This is just not me in my job that sees this. If I could get others on here to explain it, I would, but I cannot.

I guess just as people are assuming I have this judgemental view on every marriage and if someone says something about their husband or wife to me I judge it. This is not the case.

CoffeeQueen wrote:

---

mctex wrote:

---

 

Lizzy wrote:

---

 

CoffeeQueen wrote:

---

Why do people who have bad marriages keep having kids? Do people think children will make their marriage stronger?

It really boggles my mind as to why people do this. I am constantly in awe of people that tell me one day their marriage sucks and yada yada, but then not a week later tell met they are trying to get pregnant or have kids.

Does anyone else get annoyed by this or is it just me?

I am sure this is a sensitive subject for some people, but when we really strip it down there has to be a reason for it. People may not want to admit it,  but there has to be a reason?

Do the kids benefit from this?

---

Idk Melissa.  This post is so vague it makes me wonder what brought all this up?  Was it that movie Revolutionary Road because yes, that was a truly dysfunctional marriage!!  

But people have children for all sorts of reasons -what makes one the "right" one?

 

---

I, too, am curious as to why this ruffles your feathers so much. I definitely share your disdain for people who think that what is happening in their marital life has no impact on their children (or at least none worthy of consideration), BUT not sure I get the intensity of the heat.

I haven't seen Revolutionary Road. Should I?

 

 

---

Oh gosh, do not watch it. It is very disturbing. It does not ruffle my feathers per say. It is one of those things in life where I shake my head and say why. If people can agree with me that your marital life does have impact on your children. How come one cannot see how it can be troublesome for someone who talks to children daily and sees the pain ? I mean I am not even a counselor and I see the pain and hear it. I guess the intensity comes from the fact that it just keeps happening over and over and people cannot pull their heads out of their ass long enough to stop to see the damage they are causing in their wake. I mean I am sure many set out with good intentions. I just know for me I always think long term and how my decisions will effect my children in just about everything I do. I guess I  have a hard time when people do not do the same. I know not everything is black and white. I also do not care when it is just two adults in the relationship. Shit. they can beat the crap out of each other if they  want. I want to know the thought process that occurs when a women in a bad marriage stops and says I should bring another child into this.

 

---

Do NOT stand in judgement or make such statements until you know exactly what you are talking about.

As for what a woman's thought process is....many times...she does GET a thought process on it...HE makes that decision for her!

Michele wrote:

---

I have finally finished reading all this and I have to say that I'm surprised that a lot of you are requesting the definition of a "bad marriage".  I would think that if you were in a marriage that was bad then you would know, as well as knowing if it was a  good one.  Marriage has ups and downs for sure.  To me that does not equate to a bad marriage.  

IRL I currently am friends with two couples that are divorcing and chose to have their 2nd child even though the marriage was clearly rocky and unstable.   I have seen first hand the effect it has had on these kids and it breaks my heart.   The child from couple #1 recently told him mom "shut up you stupid bitch" and exhibits a complete lack of respect for his mother after 4 years of seeing his dad treat his mother poorly.  Of course both parents are pointing the finger and placing blame on each other instead of helping this young child.  The child from couple #2 is also having similar behavioral issues along with serious aggression problems.  Both of these kids were born into a family where mom and dad argued constantly and even if words weren't being exchanged they saw the body language via slamming doors, throwing things around and short rude comments back and forth.  And now they are stuck in the middle of a custody battle where they are being used as objects just to hurt the other parent.  Do I wish these kids had never been born, of course not, but I do think it was poor judgement for these parents to bring a child into a situation that was clearly not going to be getting any better.   And lets face it, even once these couples are divorced I highly doubt the rude and criticial comments about each parent will suddenly cease. These kids will be subjected to this stuff for years most likely which makes me wonder what affect this will have on their own relationships down the road let alone their self-esteem since kids are generally too young to understand such matters and take the blame upon themselves.

Melissa I can completely understand what you were trying to get across here.  It is hard when you are sitting on the sidelines watching this happen.  Especially when you are around these kids day in and day out and see the affect it has on them.

---

Regarding the red -- I guess I'm equally as surprised as to how this can still be unclear to you if you've read the whole thing... LOL!

Like I said, this was the original thing she said...

I am constantly in awe of people that tell me one day their marriage sucks and yada yada, but then not a week later tell met they are trying to get pregnant or have kids.

This is what she did not say...

I am constantly in awe of people that are upset that their husband beat them, but then not a week later tell met they are trying to get pregnant or have kids.

I am constantly in awe of people that tell me one day their wives were in prison, but then not a week later tell met they are trying to get pregnant or have kids.

I am constantly in awe of people that tell me one day their spouse has an addiction, but then not a week later tell met they are trying to get pregnant or have kids.

She just said "tell me one day their marriage sucks."  What suck means is highly subjective. I like my life, but some might think it sucks. I know lots of people who seem happy, but I think I would be miserable in their shoes. If the cause for confusion still remains unclear to you after this, I'm not sure how else to say it.

Regarding the blue -- you make an interesting point, and one I think actually adds to the confusion of this conversation... married or not, these people are acting like jackholes. So whether or not their marriage is stable is a red herring -- the real point is that jackholes shouldn't have kids.

CheleLyn wrote:

---

 

CoffeeQueen wrote:

---

 

muffy wrote:

---

i guess the only thing that bugs me about this topic is that it seems extremely judgemental to sit there, take a glimpse into another couples very personal relationship and pass a judgement if you think it is "good" or "bad".  and on top of it, to then judge them that you think they are wrong to have a child or not.

you don't "really"  see their relationship.  a lot of people display bits and pieces.  do you see them fighting at a kids soccer match, does that make them have a bad marriage?  does the wife occasionally complain to you about her husband her frustrating her at times, a vent?  does that make a bad marriage? how much do you "really" know what is going on with them - do you share a bed with them at night?

i guess my point is, why judge people?  i find that really wrong - sorry...

if you see them harming the child, call cps.

i just don't like the fact that someone can sit on a chair, from a situation that they think their life is really great at the moment and they think they are doing everything very swell. and can sit there and pass judgement on others.... for having what "you" perceive is a bad marriage, (or you can surely expand this to many other reasons, bad marriage is only one reason for labeling a person as a bad parent...)

and for the record, i have no guilt for myself.  i just find the fact that you are sitting there and judging others... well...

---

you have every right to feel that way.

do you sit every day in a chair that has 400 plus students pass by you?

well, I do not have to be in some of these homes to see the wreckage. The wreckage come here to school. They confide in faculty, staff and other parents. They come to school for love that they do not get at home. Honestly, that is how I can judge some marriages. Actually, maybe by saying the word marriage is wrong.I am juding the person. am I god, no. however, if someone saw a animal being treated like this they would stand up and fight for it. the same should apply to a child.

Frankly, I do not care why they are doing it in their marriage. I mean in terms of what their past was. To me that is an excuse. Have a child then treat that child with respect and raise them with love and care. Not have a child and parent said child when you want to.

It is very hard to call cps over emotionally well being, megan. are you familiar with the cps system?

 

---

I actually have called cps when I thought a child was being harmed or mistreated....you can call and leave an anonymous tip...i actually chose to leave my name and number so i could speak to someone directly and pass on more infor if it were needed...which in the case I called on it was needed.

of course, i also spent YEARS in the foster care system in Saginaw, Michigan...so yeah, I have a good idea of how the system works.

 

 

---

I think what she meant though is that emotional abuse (and I'm adding in neglect) are very hard to prove. Often times you just *know* but don't necessarily have proof to back it up and so there isn't a whole lot that CPS can do. Sure they can make a house call but (especially in Melissa's case) they might be greeted by a well stocked fridge/pantry, children who are clean with plenty of clothes and a clean house. And now they have to prove emotional neglect. It's very hard and in many cases never gets picked up because of that.

CheleLyn wrote:

---

 

CoffeeQueen wrote:

---

 

muffy wrote:

---

i guess the only thing that bugs me about this topic is that it seems extremely judgemental to sit there, take a glimpse into another couples very personal relationship and pass a judgement if you think it is "good" or "bad".  and on top of it, to then judge them that you think they are wrong to have a child or not.

you don't "really"  see their relationship.  a lot of people display bits and pieces.  do you see them fighting at a kids soccer match, does that make them have a bad marriage?  does the wife occasionally complain to you about her husband her frustrating her at times, a vent?  does that make a bad marriage? how much do you "really" know what is going on with them - do you share a bed with them at night?

i guess my point is, why judge people?  i find that really wrong - sorry...

if you see them harming the child, call cps.

i just don't like the fact that someone can sit on a chair, from a situation that they think their life is really great at the moment and they think they are doing everything very swell. and can sit there and pass judgement on others.... for having what "you" perceive is a bad marriage, (or you can surely expand this to many other reasons, bad marriage is only one reason for labeling a person as a bad parent...)

and for the record, i have no guilt for myself.  i just find the fact that you are sitting there and judging others... well...

---

you have every right to feel that way.

do you sit every day in a chair that has 400 plus students pass by you?

well, I do not have to be in some of these homes to see the wreckage. The wreckage come here to school. They confide in faculty, staff and other parents. They come to school for love that they do not get at home. Honestly, that is how I can judge some marriages. Actually, maybe by saying the word marriage is wrong.I am juding the person. am I god, no. however, if someone saw a animal being treated like this they would stand up and fight for it. the same should apply to a child.

Frankly, I do not care why they are doing it in their marriage. I mean in terms of what their past was. To me that is an excuse. Have a child then treat that child with respect and raise them with love and care. Not have a child and parent said child when you want to.

It is very hard to call cps over emotionally well being, megan. are you familiar with the cps system?

 

---

I actually have called cps when I thought a child was being harmed or mistreated....you can call and leave an anonymous tip...i actually chose to leave my name and number so i could speak to someone directly and pass on more infor if it were needed...which in the case I called on it was needed.

of course, i also spent YEARS in the foster care system in Saginaw, Michigan...so yeah, I have a good idea of how the system works.

 

 

---

I would guess then if you are familiar with the system in Michigan you would then know the exact guidlines for people in education and what can be reported?

Do you know if I have ever called CPS. Nope you do not. I am not privy to discuss it openly here.

I guess I am surprised people really think I am talking out of my ass and have no idea what is going on. I guess over 10 years of working with it one would have somewhat of an idea. I really am not that arrogant to think that I am the marriage police.

Again. I am talking about marriages that are known to be toxic and if it is to the point that I am seeing it, then I can honestly say I am not the only one seeing it or even dealing with it. I do not deal directly with it. I have people above me that do.

You cannot call CPS because someone is a shitty parent. I would love to be able to, but I cannot. I even do not believe they are always shitty parents. I just think sometimes people get consumed with their issues in their marriage and life and forget about the little set of ears who really has no choice but to live in that environment.

CoffeeQueen wrote:

---

CheleLyn wrote:

---

 

CoffeeQueen wrote:

---

 

mctex wrote:

---

 

Lizzy wrote:

---

 

CoffeeQueen wrote:

---

Why do people who have bad marriages keep having kids? Do people think children will make their marriage stronger?

It really boggles my mind as to why people do this. I am constantly in awe of people that tell me one day their marriage sucks and yada yada, but then not a week later tell met they are trying to get pregnant or have kids.

Does anyone else get annoyed by this or is it just me?

I am sure this is a sensitive subject for some people, but when we really strip it down there has to be a reason for it. People may not want to admit it,  but there has to be a reason?

Do the kids benefit from this?

---

Idk Melissa.  This post is so vague it makes me wonder what brought all this up?  Was it that movie Revolutionary Road because yes, that was a truly dysfunctional marriage!!  

But people have children for all sorts of reasons -what makes one the "right" one?

 

---

I, too, am curious as to why this ruffles your feathers so much. I definitely share your disdain for people who think that what is happening in their marital life has no impact on their children (or at least none worthy of consideration), BUT not sure I get the intensity of the heat.

I haven't seen Revolutionary Road. Should I?

 

 

---

Oh gosh, do not watch it. It is very disturbing. It does not ruffle my feathers per say. It is one of those things in life where I shake my head and say why. If people can agree with me that your marital life does have impact on your children. How come one cannot see how it can be troublesome for someone who talks to children daily and sees the pain ? I mean I am not even a counselor and I see the pain and hear it. I guess the intensity comes from the fact that it just keeps happening over and over and people cannot pull their heads out of their ass long enough to stop to see the damage they are causing in their wake. I mean I am sure many set out with good intentions. I just know for me I always think long term and how my decisions will effect my children in just about everything I do. I guess I  have a hard time when people do not do the same. I know not everything is black and white. I also do not care when it is just two adults in the relationship. Shit. they can beat the crap out of each other if they  want. I want to know the thought process that occurs when a women in a bad marriage stops and says I should bring another child into this.

 

---

Sorry, but this one GOT me....as it is said as someone who has NOT been in an abusive relationship...having your face beat up...being isolated from your friends and family...having your belly stomped when you end up pregnant as the result of a beating and rape by your "loving husband"....having to call the police who don't take him away despite the bruising on your body and behind your ear and on your face...being slapped so dammn hard you have ringing in your ear for DAYS! Dealing with it for YEARS because you are scared to leave...but scared to stay...and have been told how worthless and useless you are so who else could even stabd to look at you!

No, they can't just beat the crap out of each other if they want to...and getting out of it is NOT easy and is often dangerous!

Do NOT stand in judgement or make such statements until you know exactly what you are talking about.

As for what a woman's thought process is....many times...she does GET a thought process on it...HE makes that decision for her!

 

---

First, I am going to go easy hear because I think that is awfulwhat you had to live through . If you knew me you would know where I stand on abuse. If you knew me you would know what my first marriage was like. I understand that statement hitting a nerve with you, but by no means was I condoning it. I was trying to get across the point that two adults having issues is one thing. Bringing a child into that issue is another.

I have very close experience with women being scared to leave. I was married to a man that came from an abusive family and have many stories that I do not care to share here. So, I do kind of know what I am talking about when it comes to abuse. I have witnessed what you have mentioned above and it is an awful cycle and so hard to get out of. I get it, but I do not get how then that women can go on to have kids and let them get beat or treated like that or witness that. Maybe that sounds harsh to some here or to those who have lived through an abusive relationship, because I know that when you are in one you can justify many things and many times things are done out of fear, but are these women having kids out of fear? I have this crazy notion in my head that I would never, ever let my kids see that kind of treatment or allow them to be in that environment. I would leave the dang country if I had to, but I realize that is me and it is also very obviously that not alll feel that way. I realize people are scared for their lives and that is why I wonder I wonder why have that child. Just because they want to have a kid? That does not seem sound to me.

Are you saying the women are forced to have another kid with this man? I have to imagine that in the cases I am thinking of that this is not the case, but can I 100% know, no I cannot.

 

---

you (not YOU but you in general) never know what goes on behind closed doors...you can have suspicion or think you know...but you NEVER REALLY KNOW unless you are living it.

A VERY close friend of mine was there for me through my years with the ex...and she tried MANY times to get me to leave him...and it wasn't until she ended up in a similiar relationship and I was there for HER (on a completely different continenet unfortunately) that she said she didn't really understand how difficult to get out of such a bad relationship it is.

CheleLyn wrote:

---

 

CoffeeQueen wrote:

---

 

CheleLyn wrote:

---

 

CoffeeQueen wrote:

---

 

mctex wrote:

---

 

Lizzy wrote:

---

 

CoffeeQueen wrote:

---

Why do people who have bad marriages keep having kids? Do people think children will make their marriage stronger?

It really boggles my mind as to why people do this. I am constantly in awe of people that tell me one day their marriage sucks and yada yada, but then not a week later tell met they are trying to get pregnant or have kids.

Does anyone else get annoyed by this or is it just me?

I am sure this is a sensitive subject for some people, but when we really strip it down there has to be a reason for it. People may not want to admit it,  but there has to be a reason?

Do the kids benefit from this?

---

Idk Melissa.  This post is so vague it makes me wonder what brought all this up?  Was it that movie Revolutionary Road because yes, that was a truly dysfunctional marriage!!  

But people have children for all sorts of reasons -what makes one the "right" one?

 

---

I, too, am curious as to why this ruffles your feathers so much. I definitely share your disdain for people who think that what is happening in their marital life has no impact on their children (or at least none worthy of consideration), BUT not sure I get the intensity of the heat.

I haven't seen Revolutionary Road. Should I?

 

 

---

Oh gosh, do not watch it. It is very disturbing. It does not ruffle my feathers per say. It is one of those things in life where I shake my head and say why. If people can agree with me that your marital life does have impact on your children. How come one cannot see how it can be troublesome for someone who talks to children daily and sees the pain ? I mean I am not even a counselor and I see the pain and hear it. I guess the intensity comes from the fact that it just keeps happening over and over and people cannot pull their heads out of their ass long enough to stop to see the damage they are causing in their wake. I mean I am sure many set out with good intentions. I just know for me I always think long term and how my decisions will effect my children in just about everything I do. I guess I  have a hard time when people do not do the same. I know not everything is black and white. I also do not care when it is just two adults in the relationship. Shit. they can beat the crap out of each other if they  want. I want to know the thought process that occurs when a women in a bad marriage stops and says I should bring another child into this.

 

---

Sorry, but this one GOT me....as it is said as someone who has NOT been in an abusive relationship...having your face beat up...being isolated from your friends and family...having your belly stomped when you end up pregnant as the result of a beating and rape by your "loving husband"....having to call the police who don't take him away despite the bruising on your body and behind your ear and on your face...being slapped so dammn hard you have ringing in your ear for DAYS! Dealing with it for YEARS because you are scared to leave...but scared to stay...and have been told how worthless and useless you are so who else could even stabd to look at you!

No, they can't just beat the crap out of each other if they want to...and getting out of it is NOT easy and is often dangerous!

Do NOT stand in judgement or make such statements until you know exactly what you are talking about.

As for what a woman's thought process is....many times...she does GET a thought process on it...HE makes that decision for her!

 

---

First, I am going to go easy hear because I think that is awfulwhat you had to live through . If you knew me you would know where I stand on abuse. If you knew me you would know what my first marriage was like. I understand that statement hitting a nerve with you, but by no means was I condoning it. I was trying to get across the point that two adults having issues is one thing. Bringing a child into that issue is another.

I have very close experience with women being scared to leave. I was married to a man that came from an abusive family and have many stories that I do not care to share here. So, I do kind of know what I am talking about when it comes to abuse. I have witnessed what you have mentioned above and it is an awful cycle and so hard to get out of. I get it, but I do not get how then that women can go on to have kids and let them get beat or treated like that or witness that. Maybe that sounds harsh to some here or to those who have lived through an abusive relationship, because I know that when you are in one you can justify many things and many times things are done out of fear, but are these women having kids out of fear? I have this crazy notion in my head that I would never, ever let my kids see that kind of treatment or allow them to be in that environment. I would leave the dang country if I had to, but I realize that is me and it is also very obviously that not alll feel that way. I realize people are scared for their lives and that is why I wonder I wonder why have that child. Just because they want to have a kid? That does not seem sound to me.

Are you saying the women are forced to have another kid with this man? I have to imagine that in the cases I am thinking of that this is not the case, but can I 100% know, no I cannot.

 

---

in cases where there is abuse by the man on the woman, yes that is exactly what i'm saying....if you arent allowed to get birth control or see the dr until you are pregnant because he refuses to use a condom...then yes...I was forced to have a child by him

you (not YOU but you in general) never know what goes on behind closed doors...you can have suspicion or think you know...but you NEVER REALLY KNOW unless you are living it.

A VERY close friend of mine was there for me through my years with the ex...and she tried MANY times to get me to leave him...and it wasn't until she ended up in a similiar relationship and I was there for HER (on a completely different continenet unfortunately) that she said she didn't really understand how difficult to get out of such a bad relationship it is.

 

---

mctex wrote:

---

 

CoffeeQueen wrote:

---

 

muffy wrote:

---

 

mctex wrote:

---

 

Juni wrote:

---

I've read a lot of this on my phone so I'm sorry if I've missed things.

Tex - definitely the situations I see are different but a lot of times there are a lot of similar things and since people were asking for some definitions of "bad" marriage I just listed what I've seen. I know people were becoming really defensive and I was just listing those situations where maybe I felt a bit justified in being judgmental - well, in being able to tell myself, hey that IS a bad situation.

Re: having the children vs. not having them - I did think you were talking in general terms (tex) so that was my fault for assuming.

One other thing (and I think I'm done) is that it's just really hard - emotionally especially - when you have parents come and tell you all these things (and some aren't even as horrible as I shared) and really paint a picture of a bad family environment and then come a week later to share their good (pregnancy) news and expect you to be excited. It happens a lot and it is so hard because all you know is all this bad stuff - and not the normal ups and downs - but then on a dime they flip and expect you to be generally happy. It is hard.

---

Oh, ITTTTTTTTA... I tend to have a problem in general when people are clearly contradicting themselves or acting in a way that seems to be at odds with something else they've said/done. (I think that's how I once got in a lot of trouble on this board... LOL!)

 

 

---

juni and texx - you both hit the key point i am struggling with here.  and i think it relates to the very original post... not the grossly abusive situation, but the friend/aquaintance who gives the impression that their relationship is crappy, then they want you to be happy when they get preggo...

just about a month ago i had a friend in lux, american gal with french hubby, her son and timmy are bball bff's... she just got back from a 3 week vacay in the states alone with her 4 sons, got back and was sooooo frustrated - hubby had 3 weeks of "free time"  and basically was doing jack-all nothing to help with the family after their return.  she vented to me - and the conversation was a surprise somewhat.  i knew from how she kept her house (in a constant disarray...) working full time like i used to, etc.  she was frazzled.  she dumped and vented to me about marital probs.  i was a good sounding board.  she said to me "if it wasn't for the 4 boys i would divorce him because he brings nothing to our relationship"  it was hard to hear.  we talked a while, i give reflective questions... i think she needed an ear.

2 weeks later we met for lunch - totally different picture of her and hubby.  she did thank me and said our convo helped her clear her anger and she was able to calmly talk to him and work out some of their issues.

my point:

it was a vent.  was she "really"  going to divorce him - no.  but she was frustrated.  again to the point of my first point - when you are only getting a small glimpse, or only a few words, and melissa and juni - i believe in your specific situations where parents may tell you a few things - it probably is only a vent - and you seem like "safe" people to vent to for them as you are not really friend or family... that maybe. just maybe. their relationship/marriage is not all gloom and doom and that it is a simple vent.  and maybe their marriage is better than they let on in your limited exposure to them.  and that if they do get preggo - maybe its not a horrible thing. and maybe their marriage is much better than they let on if they gave you a vent. and maybe they really truly are happy to be having a child and their relationship is not all doom and gloom.

tbh, i find it easier to give the occasional vent here on Ms rather than to friends or family IRL absolutely for the reason that this is a "safe" place to vent as you are not in my irl everyday life and my vent wont get back to dh or other family members - kwim?  is it not possible that these parents that occasionally complain to you, its only just that?

 

 

---

Megan, I agree that happens, but honestly this is not what I am seeing. This is not parents just venting to me. I have been with some of these families for 10 years now. It is not just an occasional issue. Most have ended in divorce and other crazy stories that I cannot share since I would lose my job if I typed out on her. This is witnessing children and their behavior, issues. Classroom teachers deal with it at conferences, etc. This is just not me in my job that sees this. If I could get others on here to explain it, I would, but I cannot.

I guess just as people are assuming I have this judgemental view on every marriage and if someone says something about their husband or wife to me I judge it. This is not the case.

 

---

Melissa, I don't think anyone is doubting your experiences or observations.

They're still a little uneasy because of your original statement, which you yourself have admitted was extremely unclear.

I honestly think if we really got down to details, most of us would be in agreement. The people that are arguing with you are taking issue with your original definition (the yada yada bit), NOT that your observations at work aren't real or worthy of concern.

 

---