Bad marriages and children

mctex · Guru

RE: Bad marriages and children

mctex · Guru

Jennie wrote:

mctex wrote:

What's interesting to me is the underlying assumption that the quality of a marriage and and the decision to have children are automatically related.

My best guess is that people are married to whomever they're married to, and they want more kids. I'm sure that there are some people who have children hoping the marriage will get better (not a good idea, IMHO), but I'm thinking that it's a separate thought process for most folks. Maybe people are hoping that through unrelated causes their marriages will get better -- having hope. IDT that's a crime.

1ht
Regarding the red- I guess when a couple is married and they get pregnant there are three basics principles at work: birth control failure, the marriage is great, or the marriage is flagging in the public eye!
Case #1I'm a child of divorce. My parents separated when I was 2 and finalized the divorce almost 8 after years of hunting my father down. That was ugly. I don't recall any of the time that my parents were together but from what I hear it wasn't pretty. Fast forward to now and my mother is remarried to my stepfather. Together they have two children- my younger sisters aged 20 and 18. My mom and stepdad have been married for 18 years. (doing the math, aren't ya? the older on the youngers isn't really his. don't worry he knows that). Fastforward 20 years later and they can't stand each other, TBH. They sleep in separate rooms. My mom sleeps in my youngest sister's room with her and my stepdad sleeps alone what used to be my parents' room. My mom complained PROFUSELY all through my teens that she couldn't stand my stepfather and I would say, "Then get a divorce." And she would say, "I can't do that."I always assumed b/c by that point she was too old to get pregnant again b/c that seemed to be a common theme for her- meet the man, get pregnant, get married, divorce- lather, rinse, repeat. That being said- I think I'm rather the opposite. I never saw a day of love exchanged between those two. It was like watching roommates to be quite honest. Just that. And if they fought in front of us it wasn't pretty but it was civil. No nastiness. Nothing of the sort. But there was never anything that indicated a marriage. It was just them living under the same roof and raising a bunch of ingrates together. That was it. Her marriage to my father was a train wreck and boy! does she love to tell me all about it. From the age of 9 until I moved out of the house I heard every gory detail of their marriage. Every inch of their relationship. Every betrayal, every hurt, every ounce of it all. Its a dysfunctional family. And you would think that I would go out and seek that same kind of life b/c its all I've seen.
Wrong. I don't want that life. It sucks. My mantra was, "I don't want to be my mother. I don't want to be my mother. I don't want to be my mother."
Case #2- A friend of mine has a dear friend who is pregnant with baby #2. Baby #1 is the Band-Aid Baby. Her marriage sucks. Her husband is an ass and she's a dunce. She thought that if she got pregnant and had a baby that everything would get better. Wrong. It got worse.
And now comes Baby #2 which from what I understand was a complete accident.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I thnk when a marriage is at its most unstable a couple decides to have another baby b/c often times pregnancy is a most wonderful and enjoyable time for a couple- especially if they can recall their very first pregnancy- provided it was under happier circumstances- and under those pretenses they assume that the pregnancy and following birth of the child will arise in the marriage and couple the feelings they once had in one another.
Maybe..I dunno.

-- Edited by Jennie on Tuesday 25th of August 2009 11:09:13 AM

Regarding the red -- again, sure. Of course. Sometimes, people do have a baby to save the marriage.

But my point was that I don't think one should automatically assume that because people are choosing to have a baby in an unstable marriage it's because they are hoping that baby will save the marriage. Sometimes, they just want another baby. It's not too dissimilar to what a single person chooses to do when they deliberately choose to have a child... they just know who the sperm donor is going to be, LOL!

Jennie · Guru

mctex wrote:

Jennie wrote:

mctex wrote:

What's interesting to me is the underlying assumption that the quality of a marriage and and the decision to have children are automatically related.

My best guess is that people are married to whomever they're married to, and they want more kids. I'm sure that there are some people who have children hoping the marriage will get better (not a good idea, IMHO), but I'm thinking that it's a separate thought process for most folks. Maybe people are hoping that through unrelated causes their marriages will get better -- having hope. IDT that's a crime.

1ht
Regarding the red- I guess when a couple is married and they get pregnant there are three basics principles at work: birth control failure, the marriage is great, or the marriage is flagging in the public eye!
Case #1I'm a child of divorce. My parents separated when I was 2 and finalized the divorce almost 8 after years of hunting my father down. That was ugly. I don't recall any of the time that my parents were together but from what I hear it wasn't pretty. Fast forward to now and my mother is remarried to my stepfather. Together they have two children- my younger sisters aged 20 and 18. My mom and stepdad have been married for 18 years. (doing the math, aren't ya? the older on the youngers isn't really his. don't worry he knows that). Fastforward 20 years later and they can't stand each other, TBH. They sleep in separate rooms. My mom sleeps in my youngest sister's room with her and my stepdad sleeps alone what used to be my parents' room. My mom complained PROFUSELY all through my teens that she couldn't stand my stepfather and I would say, "Then get a divorce." And she would say, "I can't do that."I always assumed b/c by that point she was too old to get pregnant again b/c that seemed to be a common theme for her- meet the man, get pregnant, get married, divorce- lather, rinse, repeat. That being said- I think I'm rather the opposite. I never saw a day of love exchanged between those two. It was like watching roommates to be quite honest. Just that. And if they fought in front of us it wasn't pretty but it was civil. No nastiness. Nothing of the sort. But there was never anything that indicated a marriage. It was just them living under the same roof and raising a bunch of ingrates together. That was it. Her marriage to my father was a train wreck and boy! does she love to tell me all about it. From the age of 9 until I moved out of the house I heard every gory detail of their marriage. Every inch of their relationship. Every betrayal, every hurt, every ounce of it all. Its a dysfunctional family. And you would think that I would go out and seek that same kind of life b/c its all I've seen.
Wrong. I don't want that life. It sucks. My mantra was, "I don't want to be my mother. I don't want to be my mother. I don't want to be my mother."
Case #2- A friend of mine has a dear friend who is pregnant with baby #2. Baby #1 is the Band-Aid Baby. Her marriage sucks. Her husband is an ass and she's a dunce. She thought that if she got pregnant and had a baby that everything would get better. Wrong. It got worse.
And now comes Baby #2 which from what I understand was a complete accident.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I thnk when a marriage is at its most unstable a couple decides to have another baby b/c often times pregnancy is a most wonderful and enjoyable time for a couple- especially if they can recall their very first pregnancy- provided it was under happier circumstances- and under those pretenses they assume that the pregnancy and following birth of the child will arise in the marriage and couple the feelings they once had in one another.
Maybe..I dunno.

-- Edited by Jennie on Tuesday 25th of August 2009 11:09:13 AM

Regarding the red -- again, sure. Of course. Sometimes, people do have a baby to save the marriage.

But my point was that I don't think one should automatically assume that because people are choosing to have a baby in an unstable marriage it's because they are hoping that baby will save the marriage. Sometimes, they just want another baby. It's not too dissimilar to what a single person chooses to do when they deliberately choose to have a child... they just know who the sperm donor is going to be, LOL!

Oh! No- I was just giving an opinion answer to the OP as to WHY, in my own opinion, a couple in the "bad marriage" would have more children.

Honestly- it isn't any of my business why any one has children. Nor is it any of my business concerning the state of any one's marriage either. And I stopped worrying about who was damaging whose child. Does this make me cold? No, I don't think so. It just made sure I focused on what was more important in MY life- my children (Ooo...that sounds weird still to say--my children)

I agree with you though.

Erin · Guru

mctex wrote:

Juni wrote:

Okay, I can't speak for you Melissa - but I don't think you mean for us to judge what is a bad marriage. I think you are saying when people totally admit that their relationship is bad and "why am I with this man" etc. and then come to you the next week and tell you they are trying to get pregnant.

I have a totally different perspective and I think it falls in line with Melissa in that where we work we see hundreds of families and get to know them very well. Being in a social worker type of position I become somewhat of a counselor to a lot of them.

I work with families who are in and out of jail - one parent is physically abusing the mom, in and out of jail because of drugs, the children are obviously suffering. And then voila - mom is pregnant and now they have a happy little family. I think we can all agree that we have rough times - times when we wonder why we got married but we work through them. But bringing a child into a home with drugs, physical abuse, and who the hell knows what else - I have to disagree with you Tex that I think I'd rather that child not be born at all.

I see people all the time who have more kids to get more benefits from the government. I see kids who hide food in the pockets during lunch because there is NO food at home and yet mom is pregnant with another child. It happens and it is horrible. Yes, we can call CPS, and yes we do. That doesn't always do anything. So, no you can't just say this is a bad marriage or a good marriage but it is pretty frustrating when you work with families who are struggling with shit you can't even believe and then they keep bringing more kids into their lives.

I have to go to work but I just had to share my thoughts because I think Melissa and I have a very different perspective due to our work.

Hang on a second. Melissa started this thread and said...
"I am constantly in awe of people that tell me one day their marriage sucks and yada yada, but then not a week later tell met they are trying to get pregnant or have kids."
...and now you're talking about drugs and physical abuse and whatnot. We weren't talking about egregious cases of bad parenting/instability. We were talking about whomever Melissa was talking to that was bitching about their marriage.
I highly doubt there's much overlap between the population with whom you're engaged and the families that are passing through the private Montessori school at which Melissa works, right? The people you are talking about have a laundry list of problems -- a bad marriage is perhaps the most benign. So while I understand what you're saying -- I actually think your perspective is taking this conversation in a direction that it wasn't intended. Make sense?

I came earlier to post and then had to step away, but this was sort of my thought.

Melissa, I think the problem everyone is having is with your subjective definition of what is a "bad" marraige for having kids. I dont think any of us would disagree that a couple should think twice about bringing a child into an abusive marraige - be it physical, emotional, neglect, etc. But, your definition seems to be much broader than abuse. Or maybe your definition of abusive encompasses behavior that I may characterize as dysfunctional, but not abusive? In any event, you seemed to have a very clear idea in your head of what constitutes a bad marriage, and truly, short of clear cut abuse, without knowing being in the marriage, who are you (or any of us) to judge? Frankly, if parents to be are even considering the appropriateness of the environment they are bringing children into, they are not the parents Im worried about. Its the ones that dont consider it at all, in which case, education for couples (women?) in abusive situations about their options is the best we can hope for IMO.

Also, I just wanted to echo Crystal (I think it was Crystal). I think the decision to have children and the decision to stay in the marriage are often two totally different decisions, unrelated.

-- Edited by Erin on Tuesday 25th of August 2009 01:10:46 PM

CoffeeQueen · Guru

mctex wrote:

Jennie wrote:

mctex wrote:

What's interesting to me is the underlying assumption that the quality of a marriage and and the decision to have children are automatically related.

My best guess is that people are married to whomever they're married to, and they want more kids. I'm sure that there are some people who have children hoping the marriage will get better (not a good idea, IMHO), but I'm thinking that it's a separate thought process for most folks. Maybe people are hoping that through unrelated causes their marriages will get better -- having hope. IDT that's a crime.

1ht
Regarding the red- I guess when a couple is married and they get pregnant there are three basics principles at work: birth control failure, the marriage is great, or the marriage is flagging in the public eye!
Case #1I'm a child of divorce. My parents separated when I was 2 and finalized the divorce almost 8 after years of hunting my father down. That was ugly. I don't recall any of the time that my parents were together but from what I hear it wasn't pretty. Fast forward to now and my mother is remarried to my stepfather. Together they have two children- my younger sisters aged 20 and 18. My mom and stepdad have been married for 18 years. (doing the math, aren't ya? the older on the youngers isn't really his. don't worry he knows that). Fastforward 20 years later and they can't stand each other, TBH. They sleep in separate rooms. My mom sleeps in my youngest sister's room with her and my stepdad sleeps alone what used to be my parents' room. My mom complained PROFUSELY all through my teens that she couldn't stand my stepfather and I would say, "Then get a divorce." And she would say, "I can't do that."I always assumed b/c by that point she was too old to get pregnant again b/c that seemed to be a common theme for her- meet the man, get pregnant, get married, divorce- lather, rinse, repeat. That being said- I think I'm rather the opposite. I never saw a day of love exchanged between those two. It was like watching roommates to be quite honest. Just that. And if they fought in front of us it wasn't pretty but it was civil. No nastiness. Nothing of the sort. But there was never anything that indicated a marriage. It was just them living under the same roof and raising a bunch of ingrates together. That was it. Her marriage to my father was a train wreck and boy! does she love to tell me all about it. From the age of 9 until I moved out of the house I heard every gory detail of their marriage. Every inch of their relationship. Every betrayal, every hurt, every ounce of it all. Its a dysfunctional family. And you would think that I would go out and seek that same kind of life b/c its all I've seen.
Wrong. I don't want that life. It sucks. My mantra was, "I don't want to be my mother. I don't want to be my mother. I don't want to be my mother."
Case #2- A friend of mine has a dear friend who is pregnant with baby #2. Baby #1 is the Band-Aid Baby. Her marriage sucks. Her husband is an ass and she's a dunce. She thought that if she got pregnant and had a baby that everything would get better. Wrong. It got worse.
And now comes Baby #2 which from what I understand was a complete accident.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I thnk when a marriage is at its most unstable a couple decides to have another baby b/c often times pregnancy is a most wonderful and enjoyable time for a couple- especially if they can recall their very first pregnancy- provided it was under happier circumstances- and under those pretenses they assume that the pregnancy and following birth of the child will arise in the marriage and couple the feelings they once had in one another.
Maybe..I dunno.

-- Edited by Jennie on Tuesday 25th of August 2009 11:09:13 AM

Regarding the red -- again, sure. Of course. Sometimes, people do have a baby to save the marriage.

But my point was that I don't think one should automatically assume that because people are choosing to have a baby in an unstable marriage it's because they are hoping that baby will save the marriage. Sometimes, they just want another baby. It's not too dissimilar to what a single person chooses to do when they deliberately choose to have a child... they just know who the sperm donor is going to be, LOL!

ok, I think I skipped a few posts, but let me try this. I think you have made great points in terms of how my wording in starting out the thread and what it lead people to believe.

I also understand what you are saying in terms of being born or unborn. I am not thinking of it like that. I am not saying for the children born that they would have been better off not being alive at all. I am looking at it more from the angle of ok you have a child, marriage is not good, contstant fighting, more bad times then good and I honestly believe most people know when they are in a bad marriage. To just say that you want another ones seems irrrespobsible to me as a parent. I mean I can say I want a million bucks or to look a certain way, does not mean I will or should have it that way. I mean there is no parent police that comes around and says that you and you should not be parents. It is all equal opprotunity. I guess I just still cannot see why at that given time you would want to add a child. I mean I understand the feeling of wanting and I also understand sometimes what we want is not in the best interest of our child. That to me is where personal resonsiblity comes in. Am I making any sense? I respect that marriages have their ups and downs. Why not work on the marriage and give it your all instead of adding another human to the equation? If the marriage gets better and you feel the major issues that would have made it not a great environment for a child to be in improve, then go ahead.

I am not all or nothing on this. I realize I am doing a poor job at expressing it in the way I want to convey to others.

CoffeeQueen · Guru

Erin wrote:

mctex wrote:

Juni wrote:

Okay, I can't speak for you Melissa - but I don't think you mean for us to judge what is a bad marriage. I think you are saying when people totally admit that their relationship is bad and "why am I with this man" etc. and then come to you the next week and tell you they are trying to get pregnant.

I have a totally different perspective and I think it falls in line with Melissa in that where we work we see hundreds of families and get to know them very well. Being in a social worker type of position I become somewhat of a counselor to a lot of them.

I work with families who are in and out of jail - one parent is physically abusing the mom, in and out of jail because of drugs, the children are obviously suffering. And then voila - mom is pregnant and now they have a happy little family. I think we can all agree that we have rough times - times when we wonder why we got married but we work through them. But bringing a child into a home with drugs, physical abuse, and who the hell knows what else - I have to disagree with you Tex that I think I'd rather that child not be born at all.

I see people all the time who have more kids to get more benefits from the government. I see kids who hide food in the pockets during lunch because there is NO food at home and yet mom is pregnant with another child. It happens and it is horrible. Yes, we can call CPS, and yes we do. That doesn't always do anything. So, no you can't just say this is a bad marriage or a good marriage but it is pretty frustrating when you work with families who are struggling with shit you can't even believe and then they keep bringing more kids into their lives.

I have to go to work but I just had to share my thoughts because I think Melissa and I have a very different perspective due to our work.

Hang on a second. Melissa started this thread and said...
"I am constantly in awe of people that tell me one day their marriage sucks and yada yada, but then not a week later tell met they are trying to get pregnant or have kids."
...and now you're talking about drugs and physical abuse and whatnot. We weren't talking about egregious cases of bad parenting/instability. We were talking about whomever Melissa was talking to that was bitching about their marriage.
I highly doubt there's much overlap between the population with whom you're engaged and the families that are passing through the private Montessori school at which Melissa works, right? The people you are talking about have a laundry list of problems -- a bad marriage is perhaps the most benign. So while I understand what you're saying -- I actually think your perspective is taking this conversation in a direction that it wasn't intended. Make sense?

I came earlier to post and then had to step away, but this was sort of my thought.

Melissa, I think the problem everyone is having is with your subjective definition of what is a "bad" marraige for having kids. I dont think any of us would disagree that a couple should think twice about bringing a child into an abusive marraige - be it physical, emotional, neglect, etc. But, your definition seems to be much broader than abuse. Or maybe your definition of abusive encompasses behavior that I may characterize as dysfunctional, but not abusive? In any event, you seemed to have a very clear idea in your head of what constitutes a bad marriage, and truly, short of clear cut abuse, without knowing being in the marriage, who are you (or any of us) to judge? Frankly, if parents to be are even considering the appropriateness of the environment they are bringing children into, they are not the parents Im worried about. Its the ones that dont consider it at all, in which case, education for couples (women?) in abusive situations about their options is the best we can hope for IMO.

Also, I just wanted to echo Crystal (I think it was Crystal). I think the decision to have children and the decision to stay in the marriage are often two totally different decisions, unrelated. And, as someone with a husband who doesnt want anymore, I have had to consider whether I want another bad enough to sacrifice my marriage for it.

yes, you are right in terms of my wording about this dang term bad marriage that I used. It is subjective in some regards. However, if there is a product of their environment that already clearly shows harm being done to the child. I suppose it is all subjective. I mean I guess I see emotional damage just as great as physical. To me it is even worse. I cannot make everyone believe that.

I never said that the decision to stay in a marriage and have a child is one in the same. In fact in my eyes I just respect a parent for doing what is healthy for their child. I could care less if they are married, dating or what not.

I guess people may not like my opinion and that is fine. I think everyone makes it seem that I think I am the judge and jury. I understand that people think it is not their business. I disagree totally with that mentality. I mean do I walk around telling these parents they are bad, no. Do I wish there was a way to just make them stop one second and look at the kid, yes. I cannot use anything else to measure a bad marriage but what I am exposed to in my life. I can only measure it by seeing first hand the damage that I see with children daily. Am I going to be able to stop it first hand no, but if everyone out there felt that they should just mind their own business then we would be in a world of hurt. It is so clear and obvious in todays world

In the end we are all accountable to ourselves. I am not sitting here with a list that is marking off as to who has a bad marriage. I was simply asking what or why people have more kids in a unhealthy environment. I used the wrong words and even using healthy and unhealthy will be up for debate.

I just hope that if my child is a product of something I did wrong that there is someone on the other end that can guide them and also maybe she my how my errors have caused harm to my child.

I feel like on a daily basis that parent responsibility is out the window. People can argue with me all they want on it. but I see it and I see them turn around and want to blame the school when in fact they need to turn around and point the finger at themselves.

I do not feel perfect and claim to be.

-- Edited by CoffeeQueen on Tuesday 25th of August 2009 12:58:16 PM

CoffeeQueen · Guru

mctex wrote:

CoffeeQueen wrote:

mctex wrote:

Juni wrote:

Okay, I can't speak for you Melissa - but I don't think you mean for us to judge what is a bad marriage. I think you are saying when people totally admit that their relationship is bad and "why am I with this man" etc. and then come to you the next week and tell you they are trying to get pregnant.

I have a totally different perspective and I think it falls in line with Melissa in that where we work we see hundreds of families and get to know them very well. Being in a social worker type of position I become somewhat of a counselor to a lot of them.

I work with families who are in and out of jail - one parent is physically abusing the mom, in and out of jail because of drugs, the children are obviously suffering. And then voila - mom is pregnant and now they have a happy little family. I think we can all agree that we have rough times - times when we wonder why we got married but we work through them. But bringing a child into a home with drugs, physical abuse, and who the hell knows what else - I have to disagree with you Tex that I think I'd rather that child not be born at all.

I see people all the time who have more kids to get more benefits from the government. I see kids who hide food in the pockets during lunch because there is NO food at home and yet mom is pregnant with another child. It happens and it is horrible. Yes, we can call CPS, and yes we do. That doesn't always do anything. So, no you can't just say this is a bad marriage or a good marriage but it is pretty frustrating when you work with families who are struggling with shit you can't even believe and then they keep bringing more kids into their lives.

I have to go to work but I just had to share my thoughts because I think Melissa and I have a very different perspective due to our work.

Hang on a second. Melissa started this thread and said...
"I am constantly in awe of people that tell me one day their marriage sucks and yada yada, but then not a week later tell met they are trying to get pregnant or have kids."
...and now you're talking about drugs and physical abuse and whatnot. We weren't talking about egregious cases of bad parenting/instability. We were talking about whomever Melissa was talking to that was bitching about their marriage.
I highly doubt there's much overlap between the population with whom you're engaged and the families that are passing through the private Montessori school at which Melissa works, right? The people you are talking about have a laundry list of problems -- a bad marriage is perhaps the most benign. So while I understand what you're saying -- I actually think your perspective is taking this conversation in a direction that it wasn't intended. Make sense?

ugh, I am going to get killed for saying this, but wealth and parenting does not not indicate anything. These same issues of drugs, alcohol, sex abuse, neglect all happen to the wealthy too. I think often it is sometimes worse because it is theunspoken stuff that no one is allowed to talk about.

I did start it by saying bad marriage and I should have expanded more in that first thread and explained myself better. I am not talking about little arguments. I am talking about people that are on a downward spiral in their marriage and taking the kids with them.

Regarding the red, funny, I was just typing this as you were. ITA with you. But please also note that no one said that wealth had anything to do with it. I said they are different populations, and they are. Period.

My point was that if you would've come out and described the scenarios Juni was describing, this would've been a very different conversation. Juni responded to me specifically saying she disagreed with me in that she would rather those children not be born, but those weren't the children that we were talking about.

I guess perhaps it's my, shall I say, work experience that makes me confident in my position. Many of my best IRL friends are the exact kids that you're working with every single day, except all grown up now. (Eating disorders, drinking problems, drug addiction, depression, anxiety, a whole mass of shit stemming from unresolved childhood trauma like what you're talking about.) Are they fucked up? Hell yes! Do they know it? Absolutely! Would they rather have not been born?... um, no. They like who they are, warts and all. (I don't include myself in this because I wasn't raised with a lot of money.) Will they make different choices for their own children? You bet -- although, I'll admit, sometimes I think a pendulum swinging too far in the opposite direction is how the cycle works from generation to generation. (For example, my mom's parents invaded her privacy constantly while she was growing up... and she had little to hide. She HATED it. So she promised herself she wouldn't invade my privacy... and, uh, maybe she should've. So my inclination will be to stalk my children like a hawk... LOL... see what I'm saying?)

Which is why I worry when I see people getting too judgmental. They seem like the type that would swing that pendulum too far, and are then just part of a bigger cycle that they can't even see.

I guess I see what you are saying about people getting too judgemental, but what harm comes from someone wanting to protect another child.

I realize in the end we are only accountable to one person. Well, in my eyes and that can be a whole other debate. I believe that we do reap what we sow.

I have exhausted myself with this. I clearly need to be more careful with my verbage.

I guess there is a fine line on judging someone for what they are witnessing. I am not sure how one does not judge that.

mctex · Guru

CoffeeQueen wrote:

mctex wrote:

Regarding the red, funny, I was just typing this as you were. ITA with you. But please also note that no one said that wealth had anything to do with it. I said they are different populations, and they are. Period.

My point was that if you would've come out and described the scenarios Juni was describing, this would've been a very different conversation. Juni responded to me specifically saying she disagreed with me in that she would rather those children not be born, but those weren't the children that we were talking about.

I guess perhaps it's my, shall I say, work experience that makes me confident in my position. Many of my best IRL friends are the exact kids that you're working with every single day, except all grown up now. (Eating disorders, drinking problems, drug addiction, depression, anxiety, a whole mass of shit stemming from unresolved childhood trauma like what you're talking about.) Are they fucked up? Hell yes! Do they know it? Absolutely! Would they rather have not been born?... um, no. They like who they are, warts and all. (I don't include myself in this because I wasn't raised with a lot of money.) Will they make different choices for their own children? You bet -- although, I'll admit, sometimes I think a pendulum swinging too far in the opposite direction is how the cycle works from generation to generation. (For example, my mom's parents invaded her privacy constantly while she was growing up... and she had little to hide. She HATED it. So she promised herself she wouldn't invade my privacy... and, uh, maybe she should've. So my inclination will be to stalk my children like a hawk... LOL... see what I'm saying?)

Which is why I worry when I see people getting too judgmental. They seem like the type that would swing that pendulum too far, and are then just part of a bigger cycle that they can't even see.

I guess I see what you are saying about people getting too judgemental, but what harm comes from someone wanting to protect another child.

I realize in the end we are only accountable to one person. Well, in my eyes and that can be a whole other debate. I believe that we do reap what we sow.

I have exhausted myself with this. I clearly need to be more careful with my verbage.

I guess there is a fine line on judging someone for what they are witnessing. I am not sure how one does not judge that.

A need to judge is not a prerequisite for a desire to help. You can feel sorry for and want to help a child without demonizing or jumping to conclusions about the parents. In fact, if you've already jumped to the conclusion that the parents are selfish and irresponsible a-holes, the child may sense your contempt which then causes them to feel even worse because then they have fucked up loyalty issues. (i.e. "I like this person who is helping me and paying attention to me, but they make me feel like I shouldn't love my mom & dad, who are, after all, my mom & dad...")

An IRL example... this past 4th of July, a 5th grade neighbor boy who lives with his mother (parents are divorced) wandered down to our house and hung out while we lit fireworks. He really hit it off with my husband, who was lighting fireworks with him. At the end of the night, he told DH, "I wish you were my dad." My heart breaks for this child. BREAKS for him. It would be easy to get angry at his parents... but honestly, WTF do I know... and, more importantly, how would that help?

Again, I really understand what you're saying, and the lack of psychological sophistication in some folks really is astounding to me, too. I feel like we could have a great conversation about all of this stuff over a bottle of wine sometime.

(I was really looking for a :cheers emoticon, but couldn't find one, and wanted an excuse to use this one... LOL!)

mctex · Guru

Jennie wrote:

mctex wrote:

Jennie wrote:

mctex wrote:

What's interesting to me is the underlying assumption that the quality of a marriage and and the decision to have children are automatically related.

My best guess is that people are married to whomever they're married to, and they want more kids. I'm sure that there are some people who have children hoping the marriage will get better (not a good idea, IMHO), but I'm thinking that it's a separate thought process for most folks. Maybe people are hoping that through unrelated causes their marriages will get better -- having hope. IDT that's a crime.

1ht
Regarding the red- I guess when a couple is married and they get pregnant there are three basics principles at work: birth control failure, the marriage is great, or the marriage is flagging in the public eye!
Case #1I'm a child of divorce. My parents separated when I was 2 and finalized the divorce almost 8 after years of hunting my father down. That was ugly. I don't recall any of the time that my parents were together but from what I hear it wasn't pretty. Fast forward to now and my mother is remarried to my stepfather. Together they have two children- my younger sisters aged 20 and 18. My mom and stepdad have been married for 18 years. (doing the math, aren't ya? the older on the youngers isn't really his. don't worry he knows that). Fastforward 20 years later and they can't stand each other, TBH. They sleep in separate rooms. My mom sleeps in my youngest sister's room with her and my stepdad sleeps alone what used to be my parents' room. My mom complained PROFUSELY all through my teens that she couldn't stand my stepfather and I would say, "Then get a divorce." And she would say, "I can't do that."I always assumed b/c by that point she was too old to get pregnant again b/c that seemed to be a common theme for her- meet the man, get pregnant, get married, divorce- lather, rinse, repeat. That being said- I think I'm rather the opposite. I never saw a day of love exchanged between those two. It was like watching roommates to be quite honest. Just that. And if they fought in front of us it wasn't pretty but it was civil. No nastiness. Nothing of the sort. But there was never anything that indicated a marriage. It was just them living under the same roof and raising a bunch of ingrates together. That was it. Her marriage to my father was a train wreck and boy! does she love to tell me all about it. From the age of 9 until I moved out of the house I heard every gory detail of their marriage. Every inch of their relationship. Every betrayal, every hurt, every ounce of it all. Its a dysfunctional family. And you would think that I would go out and seek that same kind of life b/c its all I've seen.
Wrong. I don't want that life. It sucks. My mantra was, "I don't want to be my mother. I don't want to be my mother. I don't want to be my mother."
Case #2- A friend of mine has a dear friend who is pregnant with baby #2. Baby #1 is the Band-Aid Baby. Her marriage sucks. Her husband is an ass and she's a dunce. She thought that if she got pregnant and had a baby that everything would get better. Wrong. It got worse.
And now comes Baby #2 which from what I understand was a complete accident.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I thnk when a marriage is at its most unstable a couple decides to have another baby b/c often times pregnancy is a most wonderful and enjoyable time for a couple- especially if they can recall their very first pregnancy- provided it was under happier circumstances- and under those pretenses they assume that the pregnancy and following birth of the child will arise in the marriage and couple the feelings they once had in one another.
Maybe..I dunno.

-- Edited by Jennie on Tuesday 25th of August 2009 11:09:13 AM

Regarding the red -- again, sure. Of course. Sometimes, people do have a baby to save the marriage.

But my point was that I don't think one should automatically assume that because people are choosing to have a baby in an unstable marriage it's because they are hoping that baby will save the marriage. Sometimes, they just want another baby. It's not too dissimilar to what a single person chooses to do when they deliberately choose to have a child... they just know who the sperm donor is going to be, LOL!

Oh! No- I was just giving an opinion answer to the OP as to WHY, in my own opinion, a couple in the "bad marriage" would have more children.

Honestly- it isn't any of my business why any one has children. Nor is it any of my business concerning the state of any one's marriage either. And I stopped worrying about who was damaging whose child. Does this make me cold? No, I don't think so. It just made sure I focused on what was more important in MY life- my children (Ooo...that sounds weird still to say--my children)

I agree with you though.

Right on. You'd just quoted and highlighted my post, so I got confused.

And I remember how weird it was to first say children, too!

CoffeeQueen · Guru

mctex wrote:

CoffeeQueen wrote:

mctex wrote:

Regarding the red, funny, I was just typing this as you were. ITA with you. But please also note that no one said that wealth had anything to do with it. I said they are different populations, and they are. Period.

My point was that if you would've come out and described the scenarios Juni was describing, this would've been a very different conversation. Juni responded to me specifically saying she disagreed with me in that she would rather those children not be born, but those weren't the children that we were talking about.

I guess perhaps it's my, shall I say, work experience that makes me confident in my position. Many of my best IRL friends are the exact kids that you're working with every single day, except all grown up now. (Eating disorders, drinking problems, drug addiction, depression, anxiety, a whole mass of shit stemming from unresolved childhood trauma like what you're talking about.) Are they fucked up? Hell yes! Do they know it? Absolutely! Would they rather have not been born?... um, no. They like who they are, warts and all. (I don't include myself in this because I wasn't raised with a lot of money.) Will they make different choices for their own children? You bet -- although, I'll admit, sometimes I think a pendulum swinging too far in the opposite direction is how the cycle works from generation to generation. (For example, my mom's parents invaded her privacy constantly while she was growing up... and she had little to hide. She HATED it. So she promised herself she wouldn't invade my privacy... and, uh, maybe she should've. So my inclination will be to stalk my children like a hawk... LOL... see what I'm saying?)

Which is why I worry when I see people getting too judgmental. They seem like the type that would swing that pendulum too far, and are then just part of a bigger cycle that they can't even see.

I guess I see what you are saying about people getting too judgemental, but what harm comes from someone wanting to protect another child.

I realize in the end we are only accountable to one person. Well, in my eyes and that can be a whole other debate. I believe that we do reap what we sow.

I have exhausted myself with this. I clearly need to be more careful with my verbage.

I guess there is a fine line on judging someone for what they are witnessing. I am not sure how one does not judge that.

A need to judge is not a prerequisite for a desire to help. You can feel sorry for and want to help a child without demonizing or jumping to conclusions about the parents. In fact, if you've already jumped to the conclusion that the parents are selfish and irresponsible a-holes, the child may sense your contempt which then causes them to feel even worse because then they have fucked up loyalty issues. (i.e. "I like this person who is helping me and paying attention to me, but they make me feel like I shouldn't love my mom & dad, who are, after all, my mom & dad...")

An IRL example... this past 4th of July, a 5th grade neighbor boy who lives with his mother (parents are divorced) wandered down to our house and hung out while we lit fireworks. He really hit it off with my husband, who was lighting fireworks with him. At the end of the night, he told DH, "I wish you were my dad." My heart breaks for this child. BREAKS for him. It would be easy to get angry at his parents... but honestly, WTF do I know... and, more importantly, how would that help?

Again, I really understand what you're saying, and the lack of psychological sophistication in some folks really is astounding to me, too. I feel like we could have a great conversation about all of this stuff over a bottle of wine sometime. (I was really looking for a :cheers emoticon, but couldn't find one, and wanted an excuse to use this one... LOL!)

Oh, I totally agree with not making a child feel like the parents are wrong. I never would bash a parent in front of a kid. I was honestly in a sense venting here. It just gets so complicated.

I totally need wine now over all of this.

It is not that I am getting mad at the parent. I mean privately I am becase I do not get it. Ok, not totally private since I posted it here :)

kdrew · Guru

crystal wrote:

I have thought about having another child, even though my marriage sucks. It has nothing to do with my marriage, and only has to do with having another baby (and I want Mason to have another sibling). I want a baby. So, my options are to have one with my husband and hope things get better in the future (not because of the baby), or to get a divorce right away so I can have a baby with someone else. For now, I have not chosen to get out of the marriage. I would never have a baby to hold the relationship together though. Actually the main reason why we haven't had another one is because we both KNOW that would probably be the last straw for us.

Crystal, if I had one child and wanted another but I didn't know if my marriage was going to last, I would have had another one too. I would have wanted a sibling for Jack if I was going to end up single or not. I have some friends who have gone through this same situation and chose to have a 2nd before their marriage crumbled. Their thought, and mine too, is that you can't count on the fact that you're going to meet someone right away who is going to want to have a baby with you. It could take years or never happen and I personally knew I wanted at least 2, I wanted Jack to grow up with a sibling, and I wanted to get the baby toddler years out of the way all at once instead of having 2 very spread apart children.

Now that's something I'm sure some people don't agree with but I know where you're coming from. I wouldn't have had another baby in hopes of saving my marriage if it came to that but I would have to have more children, whether it be in a 1 or 2 parent home.

daisy · Guru

CoffeeQueen wrote:

Dddiii wrote:

I know I said I am out of this, but did have to come back and say one thing because it is driving me mad.

I am in no way questioning the health of my marriage. As I said in my first post, we had a rough year and came through on the other side. I just can't leave it out there that you mentioned several times that I am. No. I am not.

When I said " And on the other side, I do see your point and now have to sit here and wonder if my marriage is healthy enough" what I should have said is that it made me wonder if my marriage was healthy enough on *your scale* to qualify as good and therefore won't screw up my child.

Edited b/c I really do want to be out of this topic.

-- Edited by Dddiii on Tuesday 25th of August 2009 08:47:41 AM
It is very hard to just list what a bad marriage is. There are so many factors. Am I calling out someone who fights? Honestly, fighting is not bad persay, but how you fight can be.

I mean if you feel you have a healthy marriage then it really does not pertain to you and you should not care what my scale is. You made that comment in red and that is why I said that. I did not start this post because of you and honestly everyone on here has complained at one time or another.

I do not have a scale. I guess if we are using the child as the scale then I do have one.

I guess it is so hard to explain unless you are witnessing it. I mean are there others on here that work with children that can see what I am talkiing about? Maybe I am way off. Sure, It can all be debated. I mean just google bad marriage and children and you will get tons of research. Is a bad marriage better then a good divorce, etc.

i'm late on this. sorry.
this is an interesting discussion.
i had dinner with friends this weekend - they have a kid and are having problems, but debating a second kid.
and yesterday i spent the day with someone without kids who is just newly divorced. she's very relieved she didnt have kids in that marriage.
then i have a friend who has two kids and thought everything was great, little did she know he was cheating.

yes divorce for sure affects kids. everything does.
i just wonder, how do you know these kids' circumstances?
your original post seems to call into question those who have decided to have kids KNOWING their marriage wasnt great.
the kids you see at school who are affected by bad marriages - how do you know those marriages were bad at the time of conception? how do you know that those kids' families arent just in a rough patch, versus an "ACTUAL bad marriage" - ie, one that is just simply loveless.

i have a hard time understanding this. here i have one friend who's deciding on a child when her marriage is already rough. and another who got the rug pulled out from under her and her family. the kids will likely be affected in similar ways. not sure if the reason for divorce, or the reason for conception, is all that relevant.
:dunno

most marriages arent bad from the start, obviously.
i would be willing to guess that the hundreds of kids who are suffering through their parents' issues did come from parents who loved each other at the time. i bet only a small percentage were conceived in a "we dont love each other but lets have a kid anyway" kind of circumstance.

gogona · Guru

CoffeeQueen wrote:

gogona wrote:

CoffeeQueen wrote:

gogona wrote:

It is very easy for those of us who consider their marriages somewhat stable to say that people who are in unhealthy marriages should not have kids. I have a few single friends who knew they would not likely get married, the clock was ticking and they wanted to have kids so they had them and are raising them alone. Is that selfish? is it bad for the child? You also mentioned about not understanding why people who struggle financially keep having kids. I wonder about that too but again it's easy for me to say that because I am not in that situation... It is in human nature to justify things in million different ways and I am sure that there can be million justifications to why it is right. People in these situations may not see things the way others see it. That's the way I see it.

Irina, that is not even close to what I am talking about. I mean the whole issue of single parenting to me is not even an issue or one that I am thinking of. It has to do with environment. If that single parent is abusive, neglectful, and emotionally damaging the child then yes it is selfish. however, that is not even the case here.

I think maybe people are disecting bad marriage down to the nitty gritty. Like I fought with my husband last night and that makes a bad marriage.

It is very clear that not everyone sees it as I do.

I want to find a good example for everyone to explain what I am talking about.

I am not talking about my husband and I do not get along sometimes.

Also, I think a lot of this comes down to wording. There are certain words that are like pressure points on people. I am sure if I worded it different it would have a completely different outcome and thread.

I guess everyone who uses the word judge can also use wonder. I think I have said I wonder why.I never said that there were not million reasons that were causing this.

Um I just mentioned the single parenting as one example for people just choosing to have kids for the sake of having kids but the rest of my post pertained to bad marriage issue that you're talking about. I should just stay out of it, it's getting too intense for me

I guess I am confused. I thought you were saying that being a single parent can be viewed as being selfish. I guess in someones eyes it could. I mean honestly each and everyone of us has our own personal value system. I am not out to attack them. I am just talking about children who are brought into a very bad situation. It happen to be married people that I picked. I should have just said why do people who are in a bad place bring a kid ito it. It was not inteded to be intese to you. However, I put it in HT because it is emotional.

NP Melissa. I saw Michelle's post below and that is exactly the point I was trying to make with my example:

Quote from Texx since I don't know how to do the link thing smile

"But my point was that I don't think one should automatically assume that because people are choosing to have a baby in an unstable marriage it's because they are hoping that baby will save the marriage. Sometimes, they just want another baby. It's not too dissimilar to what a single person chooses to do when they deliberately choose to have a child... they just know who the sperm donor is going to be, LOL! "

Also, I was trying to say that we should not make assumptions about other people's lives. Their life might look certain way from the outside and be totally different in the inside. It's impossible to know the family situation unless you're part of it... and it's hard to tell where people are coming from because we don't know what's in their head... I hope I'm making sense here...

Juni · Guru

I've read a lot of this on my phone so I'm sorry if I've missed things.

Tex - definitely the situations I see are different but a lot of times there are a lot of similar things and since people were asking for some definitions of "bad" marriage I just listed what I've seen. I know people were becoming really defensive and I was just listing those situations where maybe I felt a bit justified in being judgmental - well, in being able to tell myself, hey that IS a bad situation.

Re: having the children vs. not having them - I did think you were talking in general terms (tex) so that was my fault for assuming.

One other thing (and I think I'm done) is that it's just really hard - emotionally especially - when you have parents come and tell you all these things (and some aren't even as horrible as I shared) and really paint a picture of a bad family environment and then come a week later to share their good (pregnancy) news and expect you to be excited. It happens a lot and it is so hard because all you know is all this bad stuff - and not the normal ups and downs - but then on a dime they flip and expect you to be generally happy. It is hard.

Juni · Guru

daisy wrote:

CoffeeQueen wrote:

Dddiii wrote:

I know I said I am out of this, but did have to come back and say one thing because it is driving me mad.

I am in no way questioning the health of my marriage. As I said in my first post, we had a rough year and came through on the other side. I just can't leave it out there that you mentioned several times that I am. No. I am not.

When I said " And on the other side, I do see your point and now have to sit here and wonder if my marriage is healthy enough" what I should have said is that it made me wonder if my marriage was healthy enough on *your scale* to qualify as good and therefore won't screw up my child.

Edited b/c I really do want to be out of this topic.

-- Edited by Dddiii on Tuesday 25th of August 2009 08:47:41 AM
It is very hard to just list what a bad marriage is. There are so many factors. Am I calling out someone who fights? Honestly, fighting is not bad persay, but how you fight can be.

I mean if you feel you have a healthy marriage then it really does not pertain to you and you should not care what my scale is. You made that comment in red and that is why I said that. I did not start this post because of you and honestly everyone on here has complained at one time or another.

I do not have a scale. I guess if we are using the child as the scale then I do have one.

I guess it is so hard to explain unless you are witnessing it. I mean are there others on here that work with children that can see what I am talkiing about? Maybe I am way off. Sure, It can all be debated. I mean just google bad marriage and children and you will get tons of research. Is a bad marriage better then a good divorce, etc.

i'm late on this. sorry.
this is an interesting discussion.
i had dinner with friends this weekend - they have a kid and are having problems, but debating a second kid.
and yesterday i spent the day with someone without kids who is just newly divorced. she's very relieved she didnt have kids in that marriage.
then i have a friend who has two kids and thought everything was great, little did she know he was cheating.

yes divorce for sure affects kids. everything does.
i just wonder, how do you know these kids' circumstances?
your original post seems to call into question those who have decided to have kids KNOWING their marriage wasnt great.
the kids you see at school who are affected by bad marriages - how do you know those marriages were bad at the time of conception? how do you know that those kids' families arent just in a rough patch, versus an "ACTUAL bad marriage" - ie, one that is just simply loveless.

i have a hard time understanding this. here i have one friend who's deciding on a child when her marriage is already rough. and another who got the rug pulled out from under her and her family. the kids will likely be affected in similar ways. not sure if the reason for divorce, or the reason for conception, is all that relevant.
:dunno

most marriages arent bad from the start, obviously.
i would be willing to guess that the hundreds of kids who are suffering through their parents' issues did come from parents who loved each other at the time. i bet only a small percentage were conceived in a "we dont love each other but lets have a kid anyway" kind of circumstance.

Kelly - I think it is more so when these families are already in the bad part of the marriage and then decide to TTC as opposed to the maybe the marriage was good at the time of conception, kwim?

mctex · Guru

Juni wrote:

I've read a lot of this on my phone so I'm sorry if I've missed things.

Tex - definitely the situations I see are different but a lot of times there are a lot of similar things and since people were asking for some definitions of "bad" marriage I just listed what I've seen. I know people were becoming really defensive and I was just listing those situations where maybe I felt a bit justified in being judgmental - well, in being able to tell myself, hey that IS a bad situation.

Re: having the children vs. not having them - I did think you were talking in general terms (tex) so that was my fault for assuming.

One other thing (and I think I'm done) is that it's just really hard - emotionally especially - when you have parents come and tell you all these things (and some aren't even as horrible as I shared) and really paint a picture of a bad family environment and then come a week later to share their good (pregnancy) news and expect you to be excited. It happens a lot and it is so hard because all you know is all this bad stuff - and not the normal ups and downs - but then on a dime they flip and expect you to be generally happy. It is hard.

Oh, ITTTTTTTTA... I tend to have a problem in general when people are clearly contradicting themselves or acting in a way that seems to be at odds with something else they've said/done. (I think that's how I once got in a lot of trouble on this board... LOL!)

daisy · Guru

Juni wrote:

daisy wrote:

CoffeeQueen wrote:

Dddiii wrote:

I know I said I am out of this, but did have to come back and say one thing because it is driving me mad.

I am in no way questioning the health of my marriage. As I said in my first post, we had a rough year and came through on the other side. I just can't leave it out there that you mentioned several times that I am. No. I am not.

When I said " And on the other side, I do see your point and now have to sit here and wonder if my marriage is healthy enough" what I should have said is that it made me wonder if my marriage was healthy enough on *your scale* to qualify as good and therefore won't screw up my child.

Edited b/c I really do want to be out of this topic.

-- Edited by Dddiii on Tuesday 25th of August 2009 08:47:41 AM
It is very hard to just list what a bad marriage is. There are so many factors. Am I calling out someone who fights? Honestly, fighting is not bad persay, but how you fight can be.

I mean if you feel you have a healthy marriage then it really does not pertain to you and you should not care what my scale is. You made that comment in red and that is why I said that. I did not start this post because of you and honestly everyone on here has complained at one time or another.

I do not have a scale. I guess if we are using the child as the scale then I do have one.

I guess it is so hard to explain unless you are witnessing it. I mean are there others on here that work with children that can see what I am talkiing about? Maybe I am way off. Sure, It can all be debated. I mean just google bad marriage and children and you will get tons of research. Is a bad marriage better then a good divorce, etc.

i'm late on this. sorry.
this is an interesting discussion.
i had dinner with friends this weekend - they have a kid and are having problems, but debating a second kid.
and yesterday i spent the day with someone without kids who is just newly divorced. she's very relieved she didnt have kids in that marriage.
then i have a friend who has two kids and thought everything was great, little did she know he was cheating.

yes divorce for sure affects kids. everything does.
i just wonder, how do you know these kids' circumstances?
your original post seems to call into question those who have decided to have kids KNOWING their marriage wasnt great.
the kids you see at school who are affected by bad marriages - how do you know those marriages were bad at the time of conception? how do you know that those kids' families arent just in a rough patch, versus an "ACTUAL bad marriage" - ie, one that is just simply loveless.

i have a hard time understanding this. here i have one friend who's deciding on a child when her marriage is already rough. and another who got the rug pulled out from under her and her family. the kids will likely be affected in similar ways. not sure if the reason for divorce, or the reason for conception, is all that relevant.
:dunno

most marriages arent bad from the start, obviously.
i would be willing to guess that the hundreds of kids who are suffering through their parents' issues did come from parents who loved each other at the time. i bet only a small percentage were conceived in a "we dont love each other but lets have a kid anyway" kind of circumstance.

Kelly - I think it is more so when these families are already in the bad part of the marriage and then decide to TTC as opposed to the maybe the marriage was good at the time of conception, kwim?

yes, i agree and i'm sure this is what melissa meant.

i was just unclear bc the discussion has taken many turns (and i should have read all the way through before i posted) - i thought she was focusing the discussion on kids who are conceived under less-than-ideal circumstances....

then it seemed to move in other directions.

i should have read further bc the fact that the convo had taken many turns had already been addressed biggrin

Michele · Senior Member

I have finally finished reading all this and I have to say that I'm surprised that a lot of you are requesting the definition of a "bad marriage". I would think that if you were in a marriage that was bad then you would know, as well as knowing if it was a good one. Marriage has ups and downs for sure. To me that does not equate to a bad marriage.

IRL I currently am friends with two couples that are divorcing and chose to have their 2nd child even though the marriage was clearly rocky and unstable. I have seen first hand the effect it has had on these kids and it breaks my heart. The child from couple #1 recently told him mom "shut up you stupid bitch" and exhibits a complete lack of respect for his mother after 4 years of seeing his dad treat his mother poorly. Of course both parents are pointing the finger and placing blame on each other instead of helping this young child. The child from couple #2 is also having similar behavioral issues along with serious aggression problems. Both of these kids were born into a family where mom and dad argued constantly and even if words weren't being exchanged they saw the body language via slamming doors, throwing things around and short rude comments back and forth. And now they are stuck in the middle of a custody battle where they are being used as objects just to hurt the other parent. Do I wish these kids had never been born, of course not, but I do think it was poor judgement for these parents to bring a child into a situation that was clearly not going to be getting any better. And lets face it, even once these couples are divorced I highly doubt the rude and criticial comments about each parent will suddenly cease. These kids will be subjected to this stuff for years most likely which makes me wonder what affect this will have on their own relationships down the road let alone their self-esteem since kids are generally too young to understand such matters and take the blame upon themselves.

Melissa I can completely understand what you were trying to get across here. It is hard when you are sitting on the sidelines watching this happen. Especially when you are around these kids day in and day out and see the affect it has on them.

muffy · Guru

mctex wrote:

Juni wrote:

I've read a lot of this on my phone so I'm sorry if I've missed things.

Tex - definitely the situations I see are different but a lot of times there are a lot of similar things and since people were asking for some definitions of "bad" marriage I just listed what I've seen. I know people were becoming really defensive and I was just listing those situations where maybe I felt a bit justified in being judgmental - well, in being able to tell myself, hey that IS a bad situation.

Re: having the children vs. not having them - I did think you were talking in general terms (tex) so that was my fault for assuming.

One other thing (and I think I'm done) is that it's just really hard - emotionally especially - when you have parents come and tell you all these things (and some aren't even as horrible as I shared) and really paint a picture of a bad family environment and then come a week later to share their good (pregnancy) news and expect you to be excited. It happens a lot and it is so hard because all you know is all this bad stuff - and not the normal ups and downs - but then on a dime they flip and expect you to be generally happy. It is hard.

Oh, ITTTTTTTTA... I tend to have a problem in general when people are clearly contradicting themselves or acting in a way that seems to be at odds with something else they've said/done. (I think that's how I once got in a lot of trouble on this board... LOL!)

juni and texx - you both hit the key point i am struggling with here. and i think it relates to the very original post... not the grossly abusive situation, but the friend/aquaintance who gives the impression that their relationship is crappy, then they want you to be happy when they get preggo...

just about a month ago i had a friend in lux, american gal with french hubby, her son and timmy are bball bff's... she just got back from a 3 week vacay in the states alone with her 4 sons, got back and was sooooo frustrated - hubby had 3 weeks of "free time" and basically was doing jack-all nothing to help with the family after their return. she vented to me - and the conversation was a surprise somewhat. i knew from how she kept her house (in a constant disarray...) working full time like i used to, etc. she was frazzled. she dumped and vented to me about marital probs. i was a good sounding board. she said to me "if it wasn't for the 4 boys i would divorce him because he brings nothing to our relationship" it was hard to hear. we talked a while, i give reflective questions... i think she needed an ear.

2 weeks later we met for lunch - totally different picture of her and hubby. she did thank me and said our convo helped her clear her anger and she was able to calmly talk to him and work out some of their issues.

my point:

it was a vent. was she "really" going to divorce him - no. but she was frustrated. again to the point of my first point - when you are only getting a small glimpse, or only a few words, and melissa and juni - i believe in your specific situations where parents may tell you a few things - it probably is only a vent - and you seem like "safe" people to vent to for them as you are not really friend or family... that maybe. just maybe. their relationship/marriage is not all gloom and doom and that it is a simple vent. and maybe their marriage is better than they let on in your limited exposure to them. and that if they do get preggo - maybe its not a horrible thing. and maybe their marriage is much better than they let on if they gave you a vent. and maybe they really truly are happy to be having a child and their relationship is not all doom and gloom.

tbh, i find it easier to give the occasional vent here on Ms rather than to friends or family IRL absolutely for the reason that this is a "safe" place to vent as you are not in my irl everyday life and my vent wont get back to dh or other family members - kwim? is it not possible that these parents that occasionally complain to you, its only just that?

Juni · Guru

muffy wrote:

mctex wrote:

Juni wrote:

I've read a lot of this on my phone so I'm sorry if I've missed things.

Tex - definitely the situations I see are different but a lot of times there are a lot of similar things and since people were asking for some definitions of "bad" marriage I just listed what I've seen. I know people were becoming really defensive and I was just listing those situations where maybe I felt a bit justified in being judgmental - well, in being able to tell myself, hey that IS a bad situation.

Re: having the children vs. not having them - I did think you were talking in general terms (tex) so that was my fault for assuming.

One other thing (and I think I'm done) is that it's just really hard - emotionally especially - when you have parents come and tell you all these things (and some aren't even as horrible as I shared) and really paint a picture of a bad family environment and then come a week later to share their good (pregnancy) news and expect you to be excited. It happens a lot and it is so hard because all you know is all this bad stuff - and not the normal ups and downs - but then on a dime they flip and expect you to be generally happy. It is hard.

Oh, ITTTTTTTTA... I tend to have a problem in general when people are clearly contradicting themselves or acting in a way that seems to be at odds with something else they've said/done. (I think that's how I once got in a lot of trouble on this board... LOL!)

juni and texx - you both hit the key point i am struggling with here. and i think it relates to the very original post... not the grossly abusive situation, but the friend/aquaintance who gives the impression that their relationship is crappy, then they want you to be happy when they get preggo...

just about a month ago i had a friend in lux, american gal with french hubby, her son and timmy are bball bff's... she just got back from a 3 week vacay in the states alone with her 4 sons, got back and was sooooo frustrated - hubby had 3 weeks of "free time" and basically was doing jack-all nothing to help with the family after their return. she vented to me - and the conversation was a surprise somewhat. i knew from how she kept her house (in a constant disarray...) working full time like i used to, etc. she was frazzled. she dumped and vented to me about marital probs. i was a good sounding board. she said to me "if it wasn't for the 4 boys i would divorce him because he brings nothing to our relationship" it was hard to hear. we talked a while, i give reflective questions... i think she needed an ear.

2 weeks later we met for lunch - totally different picture of her and hubby. she did thank me and said our convo helped her clear her anger and she was able to calmly talk to him and work out some of their issues.

my point:

it was a vent. was she "really" going to divorce him - no. but she was frustrated. again to the point of my first point - when you are only getting a small glimpse, or only a few words, and melissa and juni - i believe in your specific situations where parents may tell you a few things - it probably is only a vent - and you seem like "safe" people to vent to for them as you are not really friend or family... that maybe. just maybe. their relationship/marriage is not all gloom and doom and that it is a simple vent. and maybe their marriage is better than they let on in your limited exposure to them. and that if they do get preggo - maybe its not a horrible thing. and maybe their marriage is much better than they let on if they gave you a vent. and maybe they really truly are happy to be having a child and their relationship is not all doom and gloom.

tbh, i find it easier to give the occasional vent here on Ms rather than to friends or family IRL absolutely for the reason that this is a "safe" place to vent as you are not in my irl everyday life and my vent wont get back to dh or other family members - kwim? is it not possible that these parents that occasionally complain to you, its only just that?

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Muffy - I completely understand what you are saying but for the examples that I gave and the ones I am thinking of IRL - I totally disagree that I'm just getting the vents and it's during a down time.

I am going to PM you just to keep it off here but for me, absolutely I do believe that the marriages/family situations are bad and it boggles my mind why they would bring more kids. I know what you are saying about the occasional vent but I don't believe these situations to be that.