I know I said I am out of this, but did have to come back and say one thing because it is driving me mad.

I am in no way questioning the health of my marriage.  As I said in my first post, we had a rough year and came through on the other side.  I just can't leave it out there that you mentioned several times that I am.  No.  I am not.

When I said " And on the other side, I do see your point and now have to sit here and wonder if my marriage is healthy enough" what I should have said is that it made me wonder if my marriage was healthy enough on *your scale* to qualify as good and therefore won't screw up my child.


Edited b/c I really do want to be out of this topic.

Dddiii wrote:

---

I know I said I am out of this, but did have to come back and say one thing because it is driving me mad.

I am in no way questioning the health of my marriage.  As I said in my first post, we had a rough year and came through on the other side.  I just can't leave it out there that you mentioned several times that I am.  No.  I am not.

When I said " And on the other side, I do see your point and now have to sit here and wonder if my marriage is healthy enough" what I should have said is that it made me wonder if my marriage was healthy enough on *your scale* to qualify as good and therefore won't screw up my child.


Edited b/c I really do want to be out of this topic.

-- Edited by Dddiii on Tuesday 25th of August 2009 08:47:41 AM

---

CoffeeQueen wrote:

---

 

gogona wrote:

---

It is very easy for those of us who consider their marriages somewhat stable to say that people who are in unhealthy marriages should not have kids. I have a few single friends who knew they would not likely get married, the clock was ticking and they wanted to have kids so they had them and are raising them alone.  Is that selfish? is it bad for the child? You also mentioned about not understanding why people who struggle financially keep having kids.  I wonder about that too but again it's easy for me to say that because I am not in that situation...  It is in human nature to justify things in million different ways and I am sure that there can be million justifications to why it is right.  People in these situations may not see things the way others see it.  That's the way I see it.

---

Irina, that is not even close to what I am talking about. I mean the whole issue of single parenting to me is not even an issue or one that I am thinking of. It has to do with environment. If that single parent is abusive, neglectful, and emotionally damaging the child then yes it is selfish. however, that is not even the case here.

I think maybe people are disecting bad marriage down to the nitty gritty. Like I fought with my husband last night and that makes a bad marriage.

It is very clear that not everyone sees it as I do.

I want to find a good example for everyone to explain what I am talking about.

I am not talking about my husband and I do not get along sometimes.

Also, I think a lot of this comes down to wording. There are certain words that are like pressure points on people. I am sure if I worded it different it would have a completely different outcome and thread.

I guess everyone who uses the word judge can also use wonder. I think I have said I wonder why.I never said that there were not million reasons that were causing this.

 

 

---

Um I just mentioned the single parenting as one example for people just choosing to have kids for the sake of having kids but the rest of my post pertained to bad marriage issue that you're talking about.  I should just stay out of it, it's getting too intense for me  

by Susan Pease, LCSW, CADC from this link http://www.proactivechange.com/divorce/advice/misguided.htm if anyone wants to read more of it.

This sums up how I feel and I know people disagree.

Many of those who divorce have known that their marriage was over long before they began to actually physically separate. When I ask these people what kept them from leaving sooner, the number one reason they give me is, “because of the kids.” I have no doubt that every parent who has said this believes wholeheartedly that this was a noble and selfless reason to stay. Staying and sacrificing their lives seems like the only thing to do.
Quite often, those who feel committed to keeping things together to this degree are children of divorce themselves. They swear that they will not put their children through what they had to endure. What they don’t understand is that they can get divorced differently than their parents did and spare their children much of what they experienced. How a couple divorces does more to determine how well children fare than the mere fact that they divorced.

While I would agree that being a good parent entails giving up a big part of yourself every day, I also know that you cannot give what you don’t have. If you are not happy, your children will undoubtedly feel that and suffer on some level as well, even if you don’t think your unhappiness shows. Children (and all of us, for that matter) are negatively impacted by being exposed to a loveless, tense, angry environment, regardless of the circumstances in which it has been created. They are impacted more deeply because they have not yet built up the level of defenses that we have. It is as if they have half the thickness of skin that we adults do. The good news is that they also tend to be more resilient than we adults allowing them to recover faster from unhealthy situations.

When you stay in an unfulfilling, unhappy or even abusive marriage, children come to believe that relationships are experiences that entail suffering, pain and even a slow death. You are not happy, your spouse is not happy and, in turn, your kids are not happy. The world doesn’t need more married couples for the sake of having married couples - the world needs more happy people!

CoffeeQueen wrote:

---

I think I have beaten this to death. This is long, but if you want to read, feel free. Maybe it will make my stance more clear. I do an awful job at writing.

I wanted to say that good people can have a bad marriage, but good people do not hurt children. It is totally different for me.

Has anyone read this book?
Good People... Bad Marriages: Wisdom to Know... Freedom to Choose.. Courage to Change


good people, bad marriages? It may explain a bit in terms of how I think of marriage in terms of bad.

There is also a quote I love “If you don’t like where you are in life, there comes a point when you must give up the part of you that’s keeping you back.”
–Dr. Sonya Friedman

I cannot seem to express myself properly. I am not good at writing.

I took this from

by Susan Pease, LCSW, CADC from this link http://www.proactivechange.com/divorce/advice/misguided.htm if anyone wants to read more of it.

This sums up how I feel and I know people disagree.

Many of those who divorce have known that their marriage was over long before they began to actually physically separate. When I ask these people what kept them from leaving sooner, the number one reason they give me is, “because of the kids.” I have no doubt that every parent who has said this believes wholeheartedly that this was a noble and selfless reason to stay. Staying and sacrificing their lives seems like the only thing to do.
Quite often, those who feel committed to keeping things together to this degree are children of divorce themselves. They swear that they will not put their children through what they had to endure. What they don’t understand is that they can get divorced differently than their parents did and spare their children much of what they experienced. How a couple divorces does more to determine how well children fare than the mere fact that they divorced.

While I would agree that being a good parent entails giving up a big part of yourself every day, I also know that you cannot give what you don’t have. If you are not happy, your children will undoubtedly feel that and suffer on some level as well, even if you don’t think your unhappiness shows. Children (and all of us, for that matter) are negatively impacted by being exposed to a loveless, tense, angry environment, regardless of the circumstances in which it has been created. They are impacted more deeply because they have not yet built up the level of defenses that we have. It is as if they have half the thickness of skin that we adults do. The good news is that they also tend to be more resilient than we adults allowing them to recover faster from unhealthy situations.

When you stay in an unfulfilling, unhappy or even abusive marriage, children come to believe that relationships are experiences that entail suffering, pain and even a slow death. You are not happy, your spouse is not happy and, in turn, your kids are not happy. The world doesn’t need more married couples for the sake of having married couples - the world needs more happy people!

---

The part in bold:  I couldn't agree more.  I can't help but wonder if the divorce rate would be lower if people thought like that.  It's a cycle that just keeps on and on and on... 

Now, I'm speaking biblically of course because that's how I roll , but marriage wasn't intended for people to get married JUST to get married.  It was created so man could have a partner to LOVE and share his life with, and it's perfectly fine to never get married--look at Jesus .    There will naturally be ups and downs in marriages, all of that is perfectly normal too, but I think, and this is just my opinion, that if you're unhappy ALL the time and you have kids, that is what you're teaching them--to be unhappy

crystal wrote:

---

CoffeeQueen wrote:

---

 

sappy wrote:

---

interesting topic. i've read all the responses so far.

i think everyone sees things others do and feels it's "wrong". for the most part i think it's pretty simplified to say we should not have kids under less than ideal circumstances.

from the outside it does seem unkind to have kids to try to fix things. BUT, we forget that people don't always realize WHY they do something. these mothers and fathers are people too - just trying to do the best they can. i know there are people out there who only make decisions for themselves but i think they are far fewer than we realize. i think for the most part people love their kids and do the best they can. even ideal parents can screw up their kids.

---

very good point, sara.

I do think many times the parents do not even see the damage that is being done to the kids. Actually, I know that as a fact. I talk to them and sit there in utter shock as to what they are saying to me.

I would love to believe that for the most part people love their kids. I am not sure what the percentage is, but dang do i hear a lot harm being caused to children daily on the news and such.

 

 

---

can you give some examples of what you hear?  i'm curious as to what the kids are saying. 

 

---

I can give examples. I have to be careful because this is not private. I try to not speak of work much on here. 

Kids are like an open book and will repeat and tell you anything. As they get older that book closes. So, it comes out differently. With the little ones I see it in their role play. When they are playing house I can tell by the conversation that this is something they are hearing at home. May it be abuse, the mother or father always putting child down or vise versa with the parents. Are you looking for exact words? Like they will actually repeat lines from adult converstations. My Dad said that bitch is not getting a single penny from me, they sometime throw sex into the role play.  

Then the 4-8 children it comes out in depression, drinking, drugs. The best thing about what I see is that there is hope for kids in terms of if there are people willing to get involved and not sit back and just let parents have free will at the expense of the child. However, it is a very tricky and slippery slope and hard to prove. 

I have had kids tell me stories of how their parents constantly fight . I see it in the middle school girls behavior on the way they act. I know the parents and I can totally see where the behavior is coming from. Now I know kids are tricky little things and can lie and pull a fast one on people. There  have been times where they tell me they are always home alone. There are times when I see a parent abuse a child verbally in front of my eyes. I see a lot of Dads that are very bad to their kids. They call the wife dumb, idiot, etc and the same with the kids.

The kids talk in class or confide in teachers and tell them what is going on at home. The scary part for me are the kids that never open up to someone. Those are the ones I really worry for.

mctex wrote:

---

Juni wrote:

---

Okay, I can't speak for you Melissa - but I don't think you mean for us to judge what is a bad marriage. I think you are saying when people totally admit that their relationship is bad and "why am I with this man" etc. and then come to you the next week and tell you they are trying to get pregnant.

I have a totally different perspective and I think it falls in line with Melissa in that where we work we see hundreds of families and get to know them very well. Being in a social worker type of position I become somewhat of a counselor to a lot of them.

I work with families who are in and out of jail - one parent is physically abusing the mom, in and out of jail because of drugs, the children are obviously suffering. And then voila - mom is pregnant and now they have a happy little family. I think we can all agree that we have rough times - times when we wonder why we got married but we work through them. But bringing a child into a home with drugs, physical abuse, and who the hell knows what else - I have to disagree with you Tex that I think I'd rather that child not be born at all.

I see people all the time who have more kids to get more benefits from the government. I see kids who hide food in the pockets during lunch because there is NO food at home and yet mom is pregnant with another child. It happens and it is horrible. Yes, we can call CPS, and yes we do. That doesn't always do anything. So, no you can't just say this is a bad marriage or a good marriage but it is pretty frustrating when you work with families who are struggling with shit you can't even believe and then they keep bringing more kids into their lives.

I have to go to work but I just had to share my thoughts because I think Melissa and I have a very different perspective due to our work.

---

Hang on a second. Melissa started this thread and said...

"I am constantly in awe of people that tell me one day their marriage sucks and yada yada, but then not a week later tell met they are trying to get pregnant or have kids."

...and now you're talking about drugs and physical abuse and whatnot. We weren't talking about egregious cases of bad parenting/instability. We were talking about whomever Melissa was talking to that was bitching about their marriage.

I highly doubt there's much overlap between the population with whom you're engaged and the families that are passing through the private Montessori school at which Melissa works, right? The people you are talking about have a laundry list of problems -- a bad marriage is perhaps the most benign. So while I understand what you're saying -- I actually think your perspective is taking this conversation in a direction that it wasn't intended. Make sense?

---

 ugh, I am going to get killed for saying this, but wealth and parenting does not not indicate anything. These same issues of drugs, alcohol, sex abuse, neglect all happen to the wealthy too. I think often it is sometimes worse because it is theunspoken stuff that no one is allowed to talk about. 

I did start it by saying bad marriage and I should have expanded more in that first thread and explained myself better. I am not talking about little arguments. I am talking about people that are on a downward spiral in their marriage and taking the kids with them.

mctex wrote:

---

What's interesting to me is the underlying assumption that the quality of a marriage and and the decision to have children are automatically related.

My best guess is that people are married to whomever they're married to, and they want more kids. I'm sure that there are some people who have children hoping the marriage will get better (not a good idea, IMHO), but I'm thinking that it's a separate thought process for most folks. Maybe people are hoping that through unrelated causes their marriages will get better -- having hope. IDT that's a crime.

---

1ht

Regarding the red- I guess when a couple is married and they get pregnant there are three basics principles at work: birth control failure, the marriage is great, or the marriage is flagging in the public eye!

Case #1I'm a child of divorce. My parents separated when I was 2 and finalized the divorce almost 8 after years of hunting my father down. That was ugly. I don't recall any of the time that my parents were together but from what I hear it wasn't pretty. Fast forward to now and my mother is remarried to my stepfather. Together they have two children-  my younger sisters aged 20 and 18. My mom and stepdad have been married for 18 years. (doing the math, aren't ya? the older on the youngers isn't really his. don't worry he knows that). Fastforward 20 years later and they can't stand each other, TBH. They sleep in separate rooms. My mom sleeps in my youngest sister's room with her and my stepdad sleeps alone what used to be my parents' room. My mom complained PROFUSELY all through my teens that she couldn't stand my stepfather and I would say, "Then get a divorce." And she would say, "I can't do that."I always assumed b/c by that point she was too old to get pregnant again b/c that seemed to be a common theme for her- meet the man, get pregnant, get married, divorce- lather, rinse, repeat. That being said- I think I'm rather the opposite. I never saw a day of love exchanged between those two. It was like watching roommates to be quite honest. Just that. And if they fought in front of us it wasn't pretty but it was civil. No nastiness. Nothing of the sort. But there was never anything that indicated a marriage. It was just them living under the same roof and raising a bunch of ingrates together. That was it. Her marriage to my father was a train wreck and boy! does she love to tell me all about it. From the age of 9 until I moved out of the house I heard every gory detail of their marriage. Every inch of their relationship. Every betrayal, every hurt, every ounce of it all. Its a dysfunctional family. And you would think that I would go out and seek that same kind of life b/c its all I've seen.

Wrong. I don't want that life. It sucks. My mantra was, "I don't want to be my mother. I don't want to be my mother. I don't want to be my mother."

Case #2- A friend of mine has a dear friend who is pregnant with baby #2. Baby #1 is the Band-Aid Baby. Her marriage sucks. Her husband is an ass and she's a dunce. She thought that if she got pregnant and had a baby that everything would get better. Wrong. It got worse.

And now comes Baby #2 which from what I understand was a complete accident.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I thnk when a marriage is at its most unstable a couple decides to have another baby b/c often times pregnancy is a most wonderful and enjoyable time for a couple- especially if they can recall their very first pregnancy- provided it was under happier circumstances- and under those pretenses they assume that the pregnancy and following birth of the child will arise in the marriage and couple the feelings they once had in one another.

Maybe..I dunno.