CoffeeQueen wrote:

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Lizzy wrote:

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CoffeeQueen wrote:

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Why do people who have bad marriages keep having kids? Do people think children will make their marriage stronger?

It really boggles my mind as to why people do this. I am constantly in awe of people that tell me one day their marriage sucks and yada yada, but then not a week later tell met they are trying to get pregnant or have kids.

Does anyone else get annoyed by this or is it just me?

I am sure this is a sensitive subject for some people, but when we really strip it down there has to be a reason for it. People may not want to admit it,  but there has to be a reason?

Do the kids benefit from this?

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Idk Melissa.  This post is so vague it makes me wonder what brought all this up?  Was it that movie Revolutionary Road because yes, that was a truly dysfunctional marriage!!  

But people have children for all sorts of reasons -what makes one the "right" one?

 

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I was talking to someone today and that is what brought it up.

Why is it vague? I honestly do not know if a marriage is rocky in terms of a husband and wife who do not get along, why have more kids? Really there is not hidden question there.

Having children for the sole reason of patching up a marriage. Hmmm, I guess in my book it is wrong. I am not saying it does not happen all the time and I am not setting out to list the right reasons for having kids.

There are truly dysfunctional marriages out there. Like I said in other parts of my post. I see it first hand what it does to a child. I just feel it is not fair to put the child in the middle of it all.  I guess some people can look at a dysfunctional marriage and see nothing wrong with it. People put themselves first before there kids and it just bothers me.

I mean we could sit and try and figure out what is a bad marriage, what is a good marriage and all of us would have a different list.  If it is causing harm to a child then it is a bad marriage. Not a healthy situation to raise a child in.

 

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You didnt' give a specific example of what a "bad marriage" was....now I see what you are saying.  

 

mctex wrote:

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What's interesting to me is the underlying assumption that the quality of a marriage and and the decision to have children are automatically related.

I hear this sort of thing quite a bit, and TBH, IDGI. This is logically equivalent to saying that children who cannot be born into ideal circumstances should not be born.  I 100% agree with you that an unstable home environment causes long reaching (dare I say life long) complications for a child. But when the alternative is not being born at all... I don't know about you, but I'd choose a life over perfection.

Myself, I am the sole biological product of my parents, who divorced when I was 4. For me, I think all of the drama associated with the 9 years of custody battles and visitation rights and all sorts of yuckiness was exacerbated by the fact that I was alone in all of it -- I would've loved to have had someone there with me in trying to make sense of it all. So in some respects, I think it can be even better to have more siblings in a yucky situation -- not less.

My best guess is that people are married to whomever they're married to, and they want more kids. I'm sure that there are some people who have children hoping the marriage will get better (not a good idea, IMHO), but I'm thinking that it's a separate thought process for most folks. Maybe people are hoping that through unrelated causes their marriages will get better -- having hope. IDT that's a crime.

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Ok,  I am not saying terminate a pregnancy, but I do have an issue when one knowingly sets out to have a child when they know their marriage is not stable, bad or whatever word we want to use. I have the same issue when people bring their children into the world and cannot feed them. There are just some basic skills and needs that come hand in hand with being a parent. I mean you go to get a your permit to drive you must know the rules and what is needed to drive. Does everyone obey those laws once they have their license? No, but does it make it right? This is one of those subjects that I guess we could go into so many areas as to what is healthy, bad and who cares why they have them. I guess I care when I see them destroy the spirit of a child.

I am not sure I agree on the adding another to a bad situation. Is that like the misery loves company theory? Having another sibling does not always guarantee you have a partner in it all. Sometimes just the opposite happens and the siblings take different sides in it all. I see that a lot of times.

Call me what you will. I believe in life, but as a parent I do not understand how you would WANT to bring a child into an unstable not ideal circumstance. Is it not at that point just selfish and not thinking of the others involved? Is life itself the gift they are giving to their child? I guess one can look at it like that. I am sure many do and I am sure many have read my thoughts on it and totally disagree. I also find that those who disagree the most are ones who question their own vitality of their marriage.

mctex wrote:

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Lizzy wrote:

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CoffeeQueen wrote:

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Why do people who have bad marriages keep having kids? Do people think children will make their marriage stronger?

It really boggles my mind as to why people do this. I am constantly in awe of people that tell me one day their marriage sucks and yada yada, but then not a week later tell met they are trying to get pregnant or have kids.

Does anyone else get annoyed by this or is it just me?

I am sure this is a sensitive subject for some people, but when we really strip it down there has to be a reason for it. People may not want to admit it,  but there has to be a reason?

Do the kids benefit from this?

---

Idk Melissa.  This post is so vague it makes me wonder what brought all this up?  Was it that movie Revolutionary Road because yes, that was a truly dysfunctional marriage!!  

But people have children for all sorts of reasons -what makes one the "right" one?

 

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I, too, am curious as to why this ruffles your feathers so much. I definitely share your disdain for people who think that what is happening in their marital life has no impact on their children (or at least none worthy of consideration), BUT not sure I get the intensity of the heat.

I haven't seen Revolutionary Road. Should I?

 

 

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Oh gosh, do not watch it. It is very disturbing. It does not ruffle my feathers per say. It is one of those things in life where I shake my head and say why. If people can agree with me that your marital life does have impact on your children. How come one cannot see how it can be troublesome for someone who talks to children daily and sees the pain ? I mean I am not even a counselor and I see the pain and hear it. I guess the intensity comes from the fact that it just keeps happening over and over and people cannot pull their heads out of their ass long enough to stop to see the damage they are causing in their wake. I mean I am sure many set out with good intentions. I just know for me I always think long term and how my decisions will effect my children in just about everything I do. I guess I  have a hard time when people do not do the same. I know not everything is black and white. I also do not care when it is just two adults in the relationship. Shit. they can beat the crap out of each other if they  want. I want to know the thought process that occurs when a women in a bad marriage stops and says I should bring another child into this.

 

CoffeeQueen wrote:

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mctex wrote:

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What's interesting to me is the underlying assumption that the quality of a marriage and and the decision to have children are automatically related.

I hear this sort of thing quite a bit, and TBH, IDGI. This is logically equivalent to saying that children who cannot be born into ideal circumstances should not be born.  I 100% agree with you that an unstable home environment causes long reaching (dare I say life long) complications for a child. But when the alternative is not being born at all... I don't know about you, but I'd choose a life over perfection.

Myself, I am the sole biological product of my parents, who divorced when I was 4. For me, I think all of the drama associated with the 9 years of custody battles and visitation rights and all sorts of yuckiness was exacerbated by the fact that I was alone in all of it -- I would've loved to have had someone there with me in trying to make sense of it all. So in some respects, I think it can be even better to have more siblings in a yucky situation -- not less.

My best guess is that people are married to whomever they're married to, and they want more kids. I'm sure that there are some people who have children hoping the marriage will get better (not a good idea, IMHO), but I'm thinking that it's a separate thought process for most folks. Maybe people are hoping that through unrelated causes their marriages will get better -- having hope. IDT that's a crime.

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Ok,  I am not saying terminate a pregnancy, but I do have an issue when one knowingly sets out to have a child when they know their marriage is not stable, bad or whatever word we want to use. I have the same issue when people bring their children into the world and cannot feed them. There are just some basic skills and needs that come hand in hand with being a parent. I mean you go to get a your permit to drive you must know the rules and what is needed to drive. Does everyone obey those laws once they have their license? No, but does it make it right? This is one of those subjects that I guess we could go into so many areas as to what is healthy, bad and who cares why they have them. I guess I care when I see them destroy the spirit of a child.

I am not sure I agree on the adding another to a bad situation. Is that like the misery loves company theory? Having another sibling does not always guarantee you have a partner in it all. Sometimes just the opposite happens and the siblings take different sides in it all. I see that a lot of times.

Call me what you will. I believe in life, but as a parent I do not understand how you would WANT to bring a child into an unstable not ideal circumstance. Is it not at that point just selfish and not thinking of the others involved? Is life itself the gift they are giving to their child? I guess one can look at it like that. I am sure many do and I am sure many have read my thoughts on it and totally disagree. I also find that those who disagree the most are ones who question their own vitality of their marriage.

 

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Yes, the life itself is the gift. Because it's not like that child is just sitting on a shelf and someone else gets to pick it up if you don't. (I'm not talking about terminating a pregnancy.) *That* child has two choices -- born into a less than perfect situation, or not born at all. Maybe because I've actually been *that* child, I'm saying have the kid if you want one (not because you think it will fix the marriage, but because you legitimately want one -- you're the one making the assumption that the former is the cause, and I just don't think that's true most of the time)...  because drama and all, I'd rather be here than not. And actually, I think that drama had a direct hand in developing my personality in some ways I'm actually quite fond of, too. (Not that I would encourage it solely for that purpose, obviously, but I think you're taking an extremely pessimistic and narrow perspective on things.)

Regarding the red, you don't have to agree with me, but you weren't there. ;) In my experience, I think it potentially would've been a good thing. Sure, sometimes it isn't.

Regarding the green... really??? It must be nice to have that kind of confidence in your own perfection...

Regarding the blue... wow. I have to say, that statement is so aggressive (i.e., if you disagree with me you're guilty) that I think there's got to be some underlying defensiveness behind it.  I'm not sure if you consider me in "disagreement" or not, but I assure you that's not what's driving my disagreement. FTR, what's driving my continued interest in this conversation now is my curiosity about your need for judgment (especially in this seeming "if you don't agree with me, you're probably one of them" type of approach)... what I usually find regarding this type of thing is expressed here.

 

CoffeeQueen wrote:

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well, I am sure a few women here have crossed me off their christmas card list now,lol.

Listen, I did not start this to directly call out anyone. Frankly, we all vent and have good and bad days. I do not see that as bad.

I guess I am surprised that it would offend women. I would think we would all agree somewhat on this in terms of what is best for a child. I mean I knew it was debatable and that is why I put it in HT and not chit chat. Because the definition of bad appears to be so different from one to the other.

So, I guess I cannot add anymore. I feel maybe I am not clear or something. Again, they are just my feelings. I own them and do not expect others to feel the same.Ok, that is a lie. I guess I do since I am surprised that people do not agree in terms the damage it causes on a child.

I am sorry for those that feel hurt. I guess I just am not sure why. If you do not feel you have a bad marriage. Then why the hurt feelings?

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I don't think it means you have to have a bad marriage in order feel some insecurity about this... who really wants to hold themselves out as an example of perfection -- particularly in something as ambiguous as marriage?

Having been divorced yourself (as have I), I'm surprised that you of all people wouldn't understand the sensitivity. What if I started a thread that said, "I just don't get why people would get divorced... why were they so stupid to begin with in marrying someone they couldn't stay married to?" People don't just suddenly get divorced... they generally get divorced for reasons that they knew were there, but just didn't seem as big when they walked down the aisle. Marriage is a complicated beast, and what might be one woman's marital bliss is another woman's nightmare.

I may not be reading all of this correctly, and if so, I apologize. I need to go to bed...

 

mctex wrote:

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CoffeeQueen wrote:

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mctex wrote:

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What's interesting to me is the underlying assumption that the quality of a marriage and and the decision to have children are automatically related.

I hear this sort of thing quite a bit, and TBH, IDGI. This is logically equivalent to saying that children who cannot be born into ideal circumstances should not be born.  I 100% agree with you that an unstable home environment causes long reaching (dare I say life long) complications for a child. But when the alternative is not being born at all... I don't know about you, but I'd choose a life over perfection.

Myself, I am the sole biological product of my parents, who divorced when I was 4. For me, I think all of the drama associated with the 9 years of custody battles and visitation rights and all sorts of yuckiness was exacerbated by the fact that I was alone in all of it -- I would've loved to have had someone there with me in trying to make sense of it all. So in some respects, I think it can be even better to have more siblings in a yucky situation -- not less.

My best guess is that people are married to whomever they're married to, and they want more kids. I'm sure that there are some people who have children hoping the marriage will get better (not a good idea, IMHO), but I'm thinking that it's a separate thought process for most folks. Maybe people are hoping that through unrelated causes their marriages will get better -- having hope. IDT that's a crime.

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Ok,  I am not saying terminate a pregnancy, but I do have an issue when one knowingly sets out to have a child when they know their marriage is not stable, bad or whatever word we want to use. I have the same issue when people bring their children into the world and cannot feed them. There are just some basic skills and needs that come hand in hand with being a parent. I mean you go to get a your permit to drive you must know the rules and what is needed to drive. Does everyone obey those laws once they have their license? No, but does it make it right? This is one of those subjects that I guess we could go into so many areas as to what is healthy, bad and who cares why they have them. I guess I care when I see them destroy the spirit of a child.

I am not sure I agree on the adding another to a bad situation. Is that like the misery loves company theory? Having another sibling does not always guarantee you have a partner in it all. Sometimes just the opposite happens and the siblings take different sides in it all. I see that a lot of times.

Call me what you will. I believe in life, but as a parent I do not understand how you would WANT to bring a child into an unstable not ideal circumstance. Is it not at that point just selfish and not thinking of the others involved? Is life itself the gift they are giving to their child? I guess one can look at it like that. I am sure many do and I am sure many have read my thoughts on it and totally disagree. I also find that those who disagree the most are ones who question their own vitality of their marriage.

 

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Yes, the life itself is the gift. Because it's not like that child is just sitting on a shelf and someone else gets to pick it up if you don't. (I'm not talking about terminating a pregnancy.) *That* child has two choices -- born into a less than perfect situation, or not born at all. Maybe because I've actually been *that* child, I'm saying have the kid if you want one (not because you think it will fix the marriage, but because you legitimately want one -- you're the one making the assumption that the former is the cause, and I just don't think that's true most of the time)...  because drama and all, I'd rather be here than not. And actually, I think that drama had a direct hand in developing my personality in some ways I'm actually quite fond of, too. (Not that I would encourage it solely for that purpose, obviously, but I think you're taking an extremely pessimistic and narrow perspective on things.)

Regarding the red, you don't have to agree with me, but you weren't there. ;) In my experience, I think it potentially would've been a good thing. Sure, sometimes it isn't.

Regarding the green... really??? It must be nice to have that kind of confidence in your own perfection...

Regarding the blue... wow. I have to say, that statement is so aggressive (i.e., if you disagree with me you're guilty) that I think there's got to be some underlying defensiveness behind it.  I'm not sure if you consider me in "disagreement" or not, but I assure you that's not what's driving my disagreement. FTR, what's driving my continued interest in this conversation now is my curiosity about your need for judgment (especially in this seeming "if you don't agree with me, you're probably one of them" type of approach)... what I usually find regarding this type of thing is expressed here.

 

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Why is it perfection to say why would I want to bring a child into a unstable environment. Do you not strive to provide the best for your child? I mean is emotional well being not something that is included? I guess if I seem to come off as perfect that is not my intent. I honestly never would have thought that my thinking

Do you not find that it is true a lot in life that those who tend to take most offense to something are ones that feel they are guilty? Maybe guilty is to strong of a word. This applies to many things. I myself have been there in terms of different issues. I have become very heated over issues in the past on here and usually when I step back and look at what is really bothering me it is either that I have such strong conviction on somehting that I take offense to it or that I myself am doing it. Maybe I am wrong and I have no problem with saying I am. Frankly, I am not sure any of the women here fit the so called bad marriages I am speaking of. However, I would not know because I am not there and do not see it.  Everyone has the right to disagree. I guess I did not mean to come off as if you do not see it my way then you are wrong.

You are right. I was not there with you as a child. I too was just giving the other side to say it does not always work like that. I respect the fact that you feel having a sibling in it would have made it easier.

In terms of how you explained giving a child life. I see your point there. I guess I am being narrow minded in that respect. I do not know why I cannot see beyond it. I mean I just see these poor kids and do not understand it. Do I think they would be better off not born, hell no. I never was thinking it in those terms. I guess when you say if you want a kid then have one. I still do not agree entirely on that. I mean honestly everyone has the right to, but should everyone really have one? I do not have this great need to judge. I am actually very compassionate. I just feel that having children should be for more reasons then just wanting.

I cannot click on the here link .I will have to comment on that after I post this.

 

mctex wrote:

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CoffeeQueen wrote:

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mctex wrote:

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Lizzy wrote:

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CoffeeQueen wrote:

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Why do people who have bad marriages keep having kids? Do people think children will make their marriage stronger?

It really boggles my mind as to why people do this. I am constantly in awe of people that tell me one day their marriage sucks and yada yada, but then not a week later tell met they are trying to get pregnant or have kids.

Does anyone else get annoyed by this or is it just me?

I am sure this is a sensitive subject for some people, but when we really strip it down there has to be a reason for it. People may not want to admit it,  but there has to be a reason?

Do the kids benefit from this?

---

Idk Melissa.  This post is so vague it makes me wonder what brought all this up?  Was it that movie Revolutionary Road because yes, that was a truly dysfunctional marriage!!  

But people have children for all sorts of reasons -what makes one the "right" one?

 

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I, too, am curious as to why this ruffles your feathers so much. I definitely share your disdain for people who think that what is happening in their marital life has no impact on their children (or at least none worthy of consideration), BUT not sure I get the intensity of the heat.

I haven't seen Revolutionary Road. Should I?

 

 

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Oh gosh, do not watch it. It is very disturbing. It does not ruffle my feathers per say. It is one of those things in life where I shake my head and say why. If people can agree with me that your marital life does have impact on your children. How come one cannot see how it can be troublesome for someone who talks to children daily and sees the pain ? I mean I am not even a counselor and I see the pain and hear it. I guess the intensity comes from the fact that it just keeps happening over and over and people cannot pull their heads out of their ass long enough to stop to see the damage they are causing in their wake. I mean I am sure many set out with good intentions. I just know for me I always think long term and how my decisions will effect my children in just about everything I do. I guess I  have a hard time when people do not do the same. I know not everything is black and white. I also do not care when it is just two adults in the relationship. Shit. they can beat the crap out of each other if they  want. I want to know the thought process that occurs when a women in a bad marriage stops and says I should bring another child into this.

 

 

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Red... I don't think anyone is saying that what happens in their marriage cannot/does not affect their children, and I certainly don't think anyone is questioning the validity of your observations. Are they? I haven't read that.

I am, however, questioning the validity of your conclusions... because it sounds like what you're suggesting is  "because mommy & daddy fight I don't want to be born". And while that happens rarely, that's simply not the case. (Given the divorce rate is 50% and the suicide rate is not, I think that's pretty apparent.)

Do I think merely bringing a child into the world is gift enough and all they require/deserve from us? Hell no. But I also that if parenting were left to the perfect, there only would've been one person on the planet.

 

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True, but I am not talking perfection. I never was. I am not talking mommy and daddy fight sometimes. I am talking about mommy and daddy fight often. I know that in a perfect world this would not be an issue. I know that it may seem like I am judging all. I am not. I am trying to really understand it. I really struggle with trying to understand why people do what they do to children. I feel like an adult can at least defend themself and have a fighting chance.

I also think all of us justify a lot of things in our lifes to make us feel better. This is what I see daily. I see people with tons of money who do certain things because it is socially expected and leave a human in the wake. I know everyone does not fall into this category.

I think no matter what I type at this point is not going to be a good enough reason. I know I try not to judge. I wish I could always do that. I am human too and as much as I do not want to, I do it.

 

i guess the only thing that bugs me about this topic is that it seems extremely judgemental to sit there, take a glimpse into another couples very personal relationship and pass a judgement if you think it is "good" or "bad".  and on top of it, to then judge them that you think they are wrong to have a child or not.

sappy wrote:

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interesting topic. i've read all the responses so far.

i think everyone sees things others do and feels it's "wrong". for the most part i think it's pretty simplified to say we should not have kids under less than ideal circumstances.

from the outside it does seem unkind to have kids to try to fix things. BUT, we forget that people don't always realize WHY they do something. these mothers and fathers are people too - just trying to do the best they can. i know there are people out there who only make decisions for themselves but i think they are far fewer than we realize. i think for the most part people love their kids and do the best they can. even ideal parents can screw up their kids.

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very good point, sara.

I do think many times the parents do not even see the damage that is being done to the kids. Actually, I know that as a fact. I talk to them and sit there in utter shock as to what they are saying to me.

I would love to believe that for the most part people love their kids. I am not sure what the percentage is, but dang do i hear a lot harm being caused to children daily on the news and such.