Seeking Sleep Advice!

SoonerMagicMama · Newbie

Seeking Sleep Advice!

Alison · Guru

Hi and welcome to MomSquawk!

I think your ped. is steering you the wrong way in making your son "good and tired" before putting him to bed - that's just going to encourage him to get overtired, which will exacerbate the situation. I had to deal with that last night with my baby and it wasn't fun!

If he's waking at 11:30, can you give him a dream feed at say 11:15 so he just sleeps through it?

I think co-sleeping sounds like a good option for you. Is his crib in your room? I plan on keeping DD in our room as long as possible - she's in a co-sleeper bassinet now, but I'll have her sleep in the pack n' play when she grows out of the co-sleeper. I usually end up bringing her into bed with us during the last half of the night anyway. She doesn't fully wake up for feedings in the middle of the night because I am right there to respond and feed her as soon as she starts fussing, and then we both go back to sleep very easily.

Can I ask why you don't want to nurse to sleep?

I don't want to scare you (and I have an AngelCare monitor too), but if the alarm goes off and it's true SIDS, you will not be able to revive the baby. Once the alarm goes off, it's already too late. Tummy sleeping increases the SIDS risk in part because babies do sleep much better in that position, causing them to sleep much more deeply and it is more difficult for them to rouse themselves. Additionally, the pressure on their brains is unnatural, as the natural way for human babies to sleep is on their backs next to their mothers, rousing often for feedings.

I think adding additional steps to the bedtime routine may encourage him to stay awake, since he might start to expect more. Pick a bedtime routine and stick to it - it may take a week or so for him to adjust to it, but once he gets used to it, it (theoretically) should tell him that it's time for bed.

I am certainly no expert, LOL, but I've done a lot of reading on the subject recently.

HTH!

damon · Newbie

SoonerMagicMama wrote:

So, my DS, 14 weeks old, is still waking every 2.5 hours (on average) during the night. I'm headed back to work in 3 weeks, and am desperate to get him sleeping longer stretches, so if you have any advice, I'm all ears.
A bit of background on what we've tried/where we are in our efforts:
I've read bits of Healthy Sleep Habits, and try to follow it, but am NOT ready for any variation of CIO.
We stopped swaddling two weeks ago after he'd wake fighting mad when swaddled and was able to break out of every swaddle, regardless of all the "magic/miracle" swaddle blankets we tried. He actually slept a little better without the swaddle, so we're not going back to swaddling.
Pedi's only advice on sleep (and yes we had an appointment for the sole reason of discussing sleep) was to not let him nap past 6pm and to put him to bed at 9, instead starting bedtime at 7:30. Her theory was to make sure he was "good and tired" when he goes down. He still wakes at 11:30 for the first wake-up of the night (no change).
I tried co-sleeping (and we actually co-sleep most nights from the second wake-up til I can't stand the "squirmies" any longer) but I don't get good sleep (b/c he is either constantly latched or is very squirmy) and I feel like he sleeps better (deeper, not longer) in the crib too. However, when I do put him back in the crib after letting him sleep with me for appx 3 hours, he will give us a good long stretch of sleep for 4-4.5 hours (which makes me think he's waking earlier b/c he's genuinely hungry and after 3 hours of dream feeding, his tank is sufficiently stocked). Maybe that's my answer .... let him go to bed with me, dream feed for the first 3 hours of sleep, then perhaps I'd get a couple of longer stretches out of him the rest of the night ... hmmmmmmm????
I breastfeed; though I try not to nurse him to sleep. We finish nursing, then go into our rock, walk, sway, sing to sleep routine.
I've tried really hard to put him down "drowsy but awake," but after an hour of leaning over the crib, holding a paci in his mouth and patting his belly or bottom, he's screaming mad and never gets close to settling down by himself, so I don't think we're quite ready for drowsy but awake.
He doesn't generally take a paci. I've tried every type of paci sold at BRU. There is one type that he will tolerate if it's held in his mouth. For all the other types, he dramatically gags and pushes it out of his adorable little mouth.
We've recently started belly sleeping, which has made an improvement. He settles quicker on the belly and when he wakes in the middle of the night on his belly, he can put himself back to sleep (something that never, ever happened when he was sleeping on his back). I know, GASP, that this is a huge SIDS risk, but we have an Angelcare monitor, so I'd know within 20 seconds if he stopped breathing.
We have a "bedtime routine" that we follow ... bath, massage, book, tummy time if he doesn't seem tired enough, nurse, then rock, walk, sway, etc. to sleep.
I've tried what's called the "baby crack machine" on other chat boards ... the white noise machine, but we decided a box fan created better white noise for us, so we use a box fan in baby's room every night and for every nap, turned away from him.
We've tried having daddy give him a bottle at the first wake up (thinking he'll eventually decide that it's not worth waking up at 11:30 for just a bottle), but daddy cannot get him back to sleep, so I end up having to get up after the bottle and put a screaming baby back to sleep (which is much harder than doing it all on my own with no screaming).
Baby is starting to nap pretty well during the day. One hour to hour and a half nap in the morning and two 45 minute naps in the afternoon.
Given all this information (sorry of the info overload) ... any advice for me? Like I mentioned, I'm desperate and willing to try just about anything except crying.

Hey, Tamara!

MomSquawkers, meet Tamara... an IRL friend who made it to MS yesterday just in time for the crazy move!

(Tamara, we are in the middle of a transition from our old site at www.momsquawk.com/forums to this one, which is why things around here are a little slow and convoluted. It will pick up!)

Man, little P is a busy guy! It sounds like you are all over the Healthy Sleep Habits suggestions, which is what worked well for us with Alexandra. (What your ped recommended did seem to be at odds with the whole Healthy Sleep theory that sleep begets sleep, which did hold true in Alexandra's case.)

Victoria... well, she's been an entirely different story. (She's dropped all naps, and she isn't even two yet.) She wanted to sleep on her stomach, too, so I let her sleep on top of me for 16 freaking weeks -- a trick I learned in the hospital, where the nurse SWORE to me that she wouldn't stop breathing, because my respiration would be enough to keep her from sleeping too deeply. That's not really going to provide you much better sleep, however...

Will he sleep in his swing? Have you heard about/considered the Amby? I only know one person who had it -- she got it for similar reasons -- and it worked for them. (I know there have been some threads on our old board about it... maybe someone who actually used one will pop in here.)

I don't think I have any advice that you haven't already tried, but I am hopeful that someone else will. The one thing I can say is this... it's amazing the changes our kiddos can go through in two weeks. I remember feeling like I was going to have to deal with something forever, just to have it over the very next day. I'll keep my fingers crossed that this sleeping thing passes very, VERY soon!

I'm super glad you've joined us on MS! :)

mgc

Supafly · Guru

Hi Tamara and welcome!!!

It has been a while since I had a baby, but I'll try and think back...

I see you have given up on the swaddle. Both of our daughters were swaddled for 4-5 months. They could easily break out with just blankets, or just the swaddle mes and such, but what we did was a large swaddle blanket (I bought material and made some large ones-the ones you buy are just too small), then topped it with the velcro swaddle me-NOT the knit ones because they stretch. We did it tight, and they couldn't get out. (in summer with my oldest, we'd just leave her in a onesie so she didn't get too hot) They fought it, but in the end, they slept better with it than without because we didn't do tummy sleeping. It may just not be the thing for your son, but I always highly recommend the swaddle.

I agree with Alison-getting a baby good and tired is a recipe for disaster. Babies that age should not be up for more than 2 hours at a time, generally speaking. And by the time they are visibly tired (yawning, crying, etc), they are overtired and it will be harder to get to sleep. I used the Healthy Sleep Habits book and it really worked well for us (we never did CIO-we never needed to). What he says about sleep begets sleep definitely is true.

One thing I did that some people disagree with, but it worked for us, is I woke them up to eat during the day if they didn't wake on their own. At 14 weeks that may not be a problem anymore, but I never let them go without eating for longer than say 3.5 hours. I might let it stretch out a little longer if they were really in a good nap, but I made sure they ate at least that often. (they were never denied food, of course, I just didn't let them go LONGER than 3.5 hours during the daytime hours)

We also basically filled the tank right before bed too. I definitely recommend that.

Now for us, co-sleeping was a disaster, and once we moved them into their own rooms, everyone slept better. But nursing didn't pan out for me either time, so by the time they moved into their own rooms, they were on formula anyway. However, knowing myself, I would have preferred getting up and going to them than having them in the room with me. I physically can't sleep with a baby in bed with me (paranoia), but my oldest was brought home on a monitor and that thing would freak me out, and my youngest was not satisfied to be close enough to me to smell me but not be able to be attached to me. She just would not settle unless she was right next to me, and that did NOT work for me. The move to her crib was definitely good for us.

Also, she slept in the swing A LOT. I didn't want to do that, I was very against it, but it worked out fine, and she outgrew it. Sometimes at night, we would get her into a good sleep in there, then transfer her to her crib once she was asleep. She had reflux too, so I think it was just more pleasant for her not to be laying flat.

Oh, and one last thing. We did a late bedtime. At that age, my girls were probably going to bed at about 11 every night. They would sleep until about 7 the next day. As they got older, they would have some sleep issues (like night wakings again, or getting up earlier in the morning), and I would move bedtime back by maybe an hour, and things would get back to normal. We got to a bedtime of about 8pm by the time they were maybe 7 or 8ish months old? But I definitely did a later bedtime to start. They did sleep most of that last stretch, from their 8pm feed to their 11pm, but I always made sure they got that 11pm feed before we all went to bed.

Anyway, I hope you can find something that works. Everything seems to go smoother when you are well rested!!!

SoonerMagicMama · Newbie

Alison wrote:

Can I ask why you don't want to nurse to sleep?

My pedi told me at the 2 month appointment to stop nursing to sleep, as it will develop into a habit that's impossible to break. But, it's so much easier to nurse to sleep!

Thanks for all of the advice.

3s_a_crowd · Guru

My son is 4.5 months old but a pretty good sleeper.

Like Supa I agree with the later bedtime at that age. With my others they didnt go to bed till I did usually and if they were awake when I went to sleep (we coslept) that was fine with me. It was just trying to get them to realize what is day and what is night.

I also like to feed Scott right before bed. Say he ate at 6 and is asleep already and its 9, Im not going to wake up in the middle of the night if hes hungry so Ill wake to feed him. and usually hell go back to bed. If not again nbd he just knows its not play time and we turn off the light and he lays with me.

Ive never been one for bedtime routines, but I know that has worked for many people. My kids just usually need to know hey its bedtime in such and such minutes and I give them the countdown every five minutes till 10 and then Ill warn them every minute. Tedius yes but they know its coming. I guess a routine works the same way.

All in all I think all kids are different kinds of sleepers and so what works for one def might now work for you so just try something for about 4 days and if it doesnt work try something else. YOull find your niche eventually.

I forget is this your first?

3s_a_crowd · Guru

SoonerMagicMama wrote:

Alison wrote:

Can I ask why you don't want to nurse to sleep?

My pedi told me at the 2 month appointment to stop nursing to sleep, as it will develop into a habit that's impossible to break. But, it's so much easier to nurse to sleep!

Thanks for all of the advice.

To be honest Id find another ped. I dont think babies develop habits till closer to 5-6 months. But then if you havent been doing it since he was 2 months I probably wouldnt start now.

Alison · Guru

SoonerMagicMama wrote:

Alison wrote:

Can I ask why you don't want to nurse to sleep?

My pedi told me at the 2 month appointment to stop nursing to sleep, as it will develop into a habit that's impossible to break. But, it's so much easier to nurse to sleep!

Thanks for all of the advice.

IMO, any bedtime routine is a habit that's going to be hard to break. If nursing helps him fall asleep better than anything else, then by all means do it! Besides, sleep is a parenting issue and not a medical one, so it's really none of your peds' business. ;)

Alison · Guru

Does he fall asleep while nursing? If so, and you wake him to do the rest of the bedtime routine, that might be counterproductive.

Sara · Guru

Hi, welcome to Momsquawk!

I know you said you stopped swaddling but have you thought about trying the Woombie?

My youngest loved it and he actually slept in it until he was 7 months old. I know, crazy!!

Melissa, another member of the board has two little girls and her youngest, Mia was also one that started sleeping consistantly better with the woombie.

I have always found when they are that young about the longest stretch they can go is 1.5 to 2 hrs without needing another nap or being put to bed if it is bed time.

I always started my babies out in their bed then brought them to bed with me if they woke to nurse.